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Mary/PA - Welcome to this evening's Reading Recovery Meeting here at Teachers.Net.
Mary/PA - We didn't set a topic at our last meeting for this evening. What would you like to discuss?
tyylee - I need some ideas for fostering independence. I have a couple of children who can process when I prompt but aren't doing it independently yet.
alison - On the lighter side, what's with the glasses/spectacles in the Oxford books?
tyylee - alison, I have several Oxford books, which ones are you referring to? I don't recall anything about glasses or spectacles.
Mary/PA - I suppose, tyylee, you've told them that it's their job to think of something to do. And you have clearly told them what to do. Have you tried telling them that you won't help until after they try something on their own but still can't get the tricky part?
Mary/PA - alison, what do you mean "what's with the glasses"? I guess I'm thick tonight.
tyylee - I have some Oxford books that are written and published in New Zealand and they use slightly different names and words than the 'English' versions.
alison - I'm trying to hang on here, my ISP is acting up. If you look in a lot of Oxford book pictures you will see someone's glasses misplaced in the pictures, or maybe in someone's pocket, on the floor, etc. I've looked through all of the books I have and can't figure out the gimmick.
tyylee - Interesting, I will look at my Oxford books tomorrow. I never noticed that.
Molly - Mary, not a RR teacher, but a Reading Specialist - may I stay, please?
Mary/PA - tyylee, leftcoast had a good suggestion at our last meeting for getting the child to work without looking at her - she said, "I often say "Were you right?" when he was, and then tell him he's just trying to get me to say something before it's my turn."
Mary/PA - sure, Molly
tyylee - I know that I have been too quick to jump into the new book and 'help'. It is hard to keep out of it as much as I should. They try one thing and then look at me for a prompt. I need to be saying 'What else could you do/try'.
Mary/PA - alison, maybe they do that with the glasses because that's what kids often do with their glasses....some never know where they are
Molly - Tyylee, I was taught using Readers' Workshop. The "partner" had a cue before they ever suggested a strategy -- "Do you want think time or coaching?" If the kid wants think time, you give it to them.
Mary/PA - Molly, the trouble that we have with some of our kids is that they don't think on their own....we are happy to give think time, ...we want the child to remember to think
Molly - I also make sure the strategies are posted on my walls and then let them have a go at it.
Molly - I know, Mary, I have a few of those myself. Their first (and sometimes only) strategy is "ask teacher."
Mary/PA - They often appeal to us by looking at us as soon as they get to a tricky part.
Molly - Creative Teaching Press (I think?) has a wonderful set of wall charts of the various reading strats.
daisy2 - What are some of the strategies you have posted on your walls?
Mary/PA - Molly, Marie Clay doesn't like us to have things posted on the walls...it takes the child out of the book....we are to have them search the book not search out of the book
Mary/PA - Besides, they can't read the posters anyway
Molly - Does it make sense? Skip the word and come back to it. Say the beginning sound of the word and read the rest of the sentence.
Mary/PA - Molly, skip the word and come back to it is too difficult for the beginning reader...they can do that close to the end of their program, but it doesn't help them at the beginning and middle...
spedtchr68 - logged on.
Mary/PA - Our aim is to have the kids search the 3 cues and get them to match up or agree.
tyylee - Have you ever given the child the picture of the hand with the picture prompts on it to aid in remembering what to do at difficulty? I use them for second grade Lit. Groups but haven't for RR but was thinking about it? What do you think?
alison - tyylee, our TL made us remove the hand.
Mary/PA - We have to be sure that the child has a plan of attack. We have to drum it into them. "Get your mouth ready." "Reread and GYMR and think of what you make sense." "Search the picture." "Thin of the story." And make your reading sound like real talking....etc.
Maureen - Tyylee, I wouldn't use an external rubric like that.
Mary/PA - Maureen, have you got a group together for a meeting? Have you set a time and date?
Maureen - I believe that the child needs to active in constructing his own learning. The hand is just giving the child something else to appeal to for help.
Mary/PA - Plus it takes the child out of the book. They have to find the solutions to their problems IN the book.
Maureen - No we haven't, Mary. Aust and NZ are in different time zones ... same problem as here.
tyylee - Good points, thanks.
alison - I tell my students they can only look in the book or their brain.
spedtchr68 - LOL, that is a good one.
Mary/PA - alison, looking in their brain is something that they've learned the can't do...that's one of the reasons we get them...they've learned to be helpless, don't you think?
Maureen - I agree with you Mary. When I studied Learned Helplessness I matched RR kids' behaviours with the criteria for LH ... and got good matches.
sugartoy - How appropriate is this reading program for the secondary severe/profound self-contained special education students?
Mary/PA - I think that's one of the things we have to break apart right at the beginning of the child's program. It's a hard nut to crack, but has to be done as soon as possible.
alison - I very much agree. Learned helplessness is one of the major obstacles we have to overcome.
tyylee - Interesting that you say that about learning to be helpless. I have just spent the first four weeks with a new student helping her to see that a blank helpless stare won't help her learn to read. She pretended not to understand anything rather than put forth any effort. I have to make a point not to look at her when she gives me that blank look and now, finally, she is starting to work out things for herself. Of course, I had to do lots of modeling of strategies first but she is making good progress now.
Mary/PA - sugar, Reading Recovery is strictly for first graders
Maureen - Tyylee, there's a good article by Judith Neal in The Running Record, Winter 1995 about the prompts. It helped me to understand how and why they work on LH/RR kids.
sugartoy - A lot of the students that are in self-contained secondary classrooms are at that reading level
spedtchr68 - so true Sugartoy
spedtchr68 - I have some middle schoolers who are just learning to read
tyylee - Sugartoy, I recently went to a workshop titled 'Tucker Signing Strategies' that teaches a sign for each heard sound and how to use them to work through words. We are using it successfully with LD and MMH children in our building.
Mary/PA - sugar, I guess it's better explained this way...Reading Recovery is for children who have had one year of schooling and not reading and writing at an average or above level.
sugartoy - so, with that, can this reading program be used with them with mild modifications based on age difference only?
Mary/PA - Children who have been in school longer have many other issues. RR is an accelerated program...to get the child on grade level in 20 weeks or less.
sugartoy - This reading program is based on grade only without any age modifications at all.
tyylee - I think RR strategies can be used with the children you have but the leveled books are aimed for the very young child and also your children wouldn't make as rapid progress as we expect of our Rr children. We use the strategies for Literacy Groups through third grade.
Mary/PA - However, all readers can benefit from leaning to search for the cues, and apply the good reading behaviors that we foster.
spedtchr68 - agreed. I think some of the books could be appropriate for older lower level readers, especially the predictable and patterning books
spedtchr68 - I use a direct instruction program with my older kids
sugartoy - sped, that has been successful with some of my students, but with others it is not.
Maureen - Maybe we should not call them RR strategies? They are the strategies that Clay found that good readers use. Our job is to foster their use by our students. Does anyone agree with that?
spedtchr68 - Some of my students are nonverbal and it has been very successful
Mary/PA - I totally agree, Maureen.
teach - Does anyone know where I can go on the net to look up research on best practices for Title one instruction?
sugartoy - Maureen, I agree with you on that, however, my students aren't RR, they are SC
tyylee - Must go, night all.
spedtchr68 - I have one student who did not know his letter sounds at all or any sight words at the beginning of the year and knows at least 80% of the initial sounds and some sight words
Maureen - Mary, how are you finding all day RR?
Mary/PA - I was just going to say that we don't teach anything different from what a good reading teacher or program teachers. The RR program however is for getting kids on grade level as soon as possible, it's a short term program. We also tailor everything we do to each particular child.
sugartoy - sped, are you using the reading recovery program in helping our students learn?
spedtchr68 - no I use a direct instruction program
spedtchr68 - but I use some RR strategies
Mary/PA - Maureen, the first 5 lessons seem to go by nicely, it's the last three that I find myself getting a bit antsy and wishing for a break.
Maureen - I agree, Mary. RR is to encourage the child to accelerate his learning in order to be able to participate in class at a similar level to his peers. It is designed as a preventative programme against reading failure.
sugartoy - the only problem I have encountered is the students that are severely behavioral. Direct instruction is failing in working with them.
Mary/PA - But it is so much easier as far as keeping focused...my attentions are pulled in too many directions
spedtchr68 - I love direct instruction, I find that it gives them the success they deserve
Maureen - It is tiring working at that level of intensity all day, Mary. Good to be able to keep focused ... that's something that I've appreciated too.
Mary/PA - Children with behavior problems are always a challenge...no program or approach is going to seem like it works for them because we never can figure out what the heck they are attending to
Mary/PA - Their brains are in a different mode....no one that is open to learning....more of a survival mode.
Maureen - Next year I'll be working with four students daily, and will have classes and seminars the rest of the day. I've never taught fewer than 6 in all my time in RR.
sugartoy - Mary, I know, I just wish I could figure out a way that these kids can learn something, if it is only how to write their name correctly.
Maureen - I've had a BD kid ... Maslow's hierarchy of needs in the flesh. But to my great joy he is learning!
spedtchr68 - I have a student in 8th grade, who can't even spell her first and last name. But, she knows what a noun and verb are
Mary/PA - Oh, Maureen, I guess it's all going to seem so easy for you next year! Your brain and your organizational skills have been kept in very good shape!
spedtchr68 - I would say that being able to write a name is a little bit more important.
sugartoy - That's great Maureen.
Maureen - I don't know about easy, Mary! lol
sugartoy - that's my opinion sped.
spedtchr68 - it is said bc she does not even know all her numbers either
Mary/PA - Oh, you are going to do so well, Maureen, I just know it!!
spedtchr68 - mom and her are talking college
sugartoy - The only factor that is being so influenced right now is my students ability to comprehend the skills needed for LIFE. The transition area.
Mary/PA - sped, in what range is her IQ?
spedtchr68 - supposedly a 76
spedtchr68 - but I really disagree
sugartoy - if you are talking about the girl who can't write her name, I agree with you sped.
Mary/PA - Oh my, spedtch, there must be something else really getting in her way of learning. She should be a lot farther along than she is.!!
spedtchr68 - she has cerebral palsy
spedtchr68 - and has been working on the Dolch words for 5 years
Mary/PA - Oh, ....can she sit up?
Maureen - How is her motor control, spedtchr?
spedtchr68 - she is in a chair
spedtchr68 - wheelchair that is.
Mary/PA - and her vision?
spedtchr68 - she is unable to write. She can't even write her name on the computer
chatter - hi room
Maureen - Because of motor control or memory issues, spedtchr?
sugartoy - good luck with her sped, and I appreciate the advice offered to me tonight on reading. Goodnight everyone!
spedtchr68 - vision is a problem. I think there is some vision issues, perceptual and field of vision.
Mary/PA - can she manipulate magnetic letters...large ones?
spedtchr68 - motor control, she has limited fine motor control.
spedtchr68 - minimally, but that is not appropriate. She can barely do that to spell words
spedtchr68 - she can spell her first name on the computer using 36 point font and an enlarged keyboard.
Mary/PA - sped, have you tried typing out what she needs to read in a very large font size?
spedtchr68 - Yes, I do that.
Maureen - Can she learn to spell other words using the computer, do you think?
Mary/PA - It helps for those who are having troubles to see the details of the letters and words.
spedtchr68 - she can barely read
spedtchr68 - with assistance.
spedtchr68 - she is even struggling with Edmark.
Maureen - Can she dictate a sentence for you to write?
spedtchr68 - oh yes
Maureen - Help her to make some short stories for rereading, Sped. Or directions for how to do something, recipes etc. Keep it simple
spedtchr68 - I am very simple
Mary/PA - Well, I have to go...we forgot to think of a topic for next time again. Any ideas?
Maureen - Take high frequency words from the written work to learn for spelling and for starting to build a knowledge of common patterns etc
spedtchr68 - my goal is for her to be able to read the first 50
spedtchr68 - dolch words
Maureen - Mary, I'll try to get here again. I'm always happy to talk about anything RR
Mary/PA - Does she have sound to symbol and symbol to sound correspondences established?
spedtchr68 - sounds yes,
Mary/PA - I'm thinking that she doesn't understand how words work.
Maureen - Sped, do you take Running Records?
spedtchr68 - no no one worked with her.
spedtchr68 - oh yes.
Mary/PA - Does she understand how the sounds blend together from left to right to form words?
spedtchr68 - yes, we are working on that.
Mary/PA - I don't suppose she can say words slowly to hear the sounds in them
spedtchr68 - we do Corrective Reading
Maureen - Have you tried Cut up Sentences with her?
spedtchr68 - We are trying
spedtchr68 - working on that.
spedtchr68 - she is starting to read the Bob Books
Mary/PA - Well, keep trying....I do have to go....Thank you all for coming! See you next time.
Maureen - Well, I really have to go now. Good luck with your teaching and in case I don't see you before ... Happy Holidays!
