KathleenTeachers.Net - Welcome to a discussion with Dr. Beverly Tatum, Dean of Mt. Holyoke College and author of "Why Are All the Black Kids Sitting Together in the Cafeteria?" http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0465091296/teachersnet
KathleenTeachers.Net - Good evening, BDT:-) thank you for being here tonight. :-)
BDT - My pleasure!
KathleenTeachers.Net - It is a honor to be able to introduce Dr. Beverly Daniel Tatum, "BDT" for this session :-),, Dean of Mt. Holyoke College and author of Why Are All the Black Kids Sitting Together in the Cafeteria? (Basic Books). Dr. Tatum, welcome to Teachers.Net! Are you a New England native?
BDT - Yes, I grew up in Massachusetts, went to college in Connecticut, and after a few years in the Midwest and West Coast, I returned to Massachusetts 16 years ago.
KathleenTeachers.Net - Beverly, should we be worried about all the black kids sitting together in the cafeteria? Why or why not?
BDT - I don't think we need to worry when young people choose to sit with people like themselves, with whom they may share common experiences and interests. When those groups are racially similar, we get nervous because it reminds us of the imposed segregation of the past, but in fact connecting with people like yourself can be an important part of identity development. We should also work to provide opportunities for young people to connect across lines of difference, however.
KathleenTeachers.Net - Dr. Tatum, in a high school setting, how should we help young people connect?
BDT - Group projects where kids are working together toward a common goal are a great way. Sports teams are a good example of bringing kids together.
KathleenTeachers.Net - Dr. Tatum, should there be encouragement, in the form of opportunities such as clubs, for groups to congregate by race?
BDT - I think "cultural identity groups" like the Asian Student Alliance or the African American Association, etc. can be useful organizations, especially in predominantly white school settings, where kids of color may feel isolated. Good advising is important to support the development of the students who participate, but also to help those groups connect with mainstream organizations/activities in the school.
nat/k/ma - I would like to give my experience about all black kids sitting together in the cafeteria in college. Because that happened, when we graduated and went our own different ways, we didn't feel part of the college as a whole when it comes time for reunions. Do you find that as something that is happening when Black Kids are friends only with each other and do not become part of the whole?
BDT - It is important to both affirm identity AND build community, so that all students do feel a part of the whole. Sometimes people think that if you support cultural groups, it will be divisive, but in fact it can help students feel like the school cares about them, and then they feel more invested in the school.
Mama B - What is your purpose for writing this book and what message are you trying to send? What experiences have you had with this?
BDT - My goal in writing the book was to help people understand what racism is, how it manifests itself in our society (individually, culturally, and institutionally), how it impacts all of us in terms of racial identity, and ultimately what each of us can do to interrupt the cycle of racism.
anna/MT - I teach in a tribal school, which could be considered "mono cultural." In such a setting, how can we work to help students overcome their stereotypes about other cultures?
BDT - When students have limited personal contact with groups different than themselves, we have to try to bring in other perspectives in a variety of ways - literature, videos, guest speakers, if possible. If technology is available, chat rooms and e-mail with other school communities can help.
KathleenTeachers.Net - Dr. Tatum, why do black youths in particular think about themselves in terms of race?
BDT - Because other people do! Young black children do not describe themselves in terms of race, but as they get older, they do start to describe themselves that way. But the environment responds to them in terms of race. For example, teenage Black boys notice that they are being followed by security guards at the mall, or that women avoid them on the sidewalk. Those kinds of interactions are race related and they realize that.
KathleenTeachers.Net - Dr. Tatum, please tell us about the demonstration project in Northampton, Massachusetts schools (for which you received a Carnegie Corp grant to implement).
BDT - The project in Northampton involved a 3-part initiative; one component was an anti-racist professional development course for teachers, another was an after-school cultural identity group project for middle school students, and the third component involved outreach workshops for parents. Each part was designed to increase the participant's ability to think critically about issues of racism , and how they could respond.
KathleenTeachers.Net - Will information about the demonstration project be shared in any national forum and or media?
KathleenTeachers.Net - Has the project been completed and evaluated for its effects?
BDT - We found that many teachers want to work with students to help them resist racism but they don't know how. They have not had models for how to do it. I have written a few articles about the professional development component of the project. My colleague, Phyllis Brown, developed the curriculum for the cultural identity groups, and she is working to make it available to others.
anna/MT - Dr. Tatum, how much of your research is applicable to other minorities? How much is specific to African-Americans? What sets African-Americans apart from other minorities?
BDT - In my book, I talk about racial identity issues for whites, Latinos, Asians, Native Americans, and biracial youth in addition to racial identity issues for African Americans. While different racial/ethnic groups have had different histories in the U.S., there are many similarities between Blacks, Latinos, and Native Americans. The Asian population in the U.S. is increasingly an immigrant population, especially since 1965, there has been an influx of Asian immigrants from many different countries, and their history with colonization and U.S. domination is different.
BDT - Certainly the experience of slavery is unique to African Americans, but the more you know about the history of colonization of Mexican territory, and the treatment of Native Americans the more you see the similarities, and certainly there are similarities in those groups in terms of school performance.
Mama B - Do you see an increase of racism on the college campus today compared to 10 years ago? How can we elementary teachers help to improve the attitudes of students and parents about the different races? I want practical ways of dealing with it, not theoretical ways.
BDT - As campuses grow more diverse in their student populations, it is not surprising to see more conflict. Most students grow up in socially segregated neighborhoods and college is the first time they have really had to interact closely (in the same residence hall, for example) with people from different racial backgrounds than their own. Elementary teachers can talk to their students openly about what racism is (in terms of fairness and unfairness), can help their students recognize stereotypes in cartoons and in the media, can provide positive images of people of color in the classroom, and can work with parents to encourage them to do the same at home. A great resource for young children's education is the AntiBias Curriculum available from the National Association for the Education of Young Children in Washington DC.
KathleenTeachers.Net - Dr. Tatum, during a recent discussion here, some teachers expressed the opinion that in some ways racial discrimination is more evident in the North than in the South of the US. Do you have an opinion on that question?
KathleenTeachers.Net - National Association for the Education of Young Children in Washington DC. http://neayc.org
BDT - Some of the most racially segregated cities in the country are in the North, so in that sense, I would be inclined to agree.
KathleenTeachers.Net - Anti bias curriculum: http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/093598920X/teachersnet/
Kathleen - Dr. Tatum, how can I arrange to receive information about the curriculum you developed with Phyllis Brown?
BDT - In my first book, Assimilation Blues (soon to be reprinted by Basic Books) the Black parents I interviewed were from the South, but had moved to Northern areas as adults. They felt that racism was easier to deal with in the South because it was more overt when it was present. It was easier to know where others were coming from.
Kathleen - http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0935989536/teachersnet Reaching Potentials : Appropriate Curriculum and Assessment for Young Children by Sue Bredekamp, Teresa Rosegrant $7
BDT - Re: Phyllis Brown, she can be reached by e-mail at pbrown@lesley.edu
Kathleen - Assimilation Blues by Beverly Tatum can be ordered now for delivery as soon as it is published in Feb. 2000: http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0465083609/teachersnet
CG - Dr. Tatum, Does anyone know when the concept of race began appearing historically? It seems to be so artificial & illogical!
BDT - The origin of the concept is a hard question to answer. We know that English explorers to Africa in the 1500s used 'racial' language to describe the dark-skinned people they encountered. The classifications of people coincides with other efforts to classify the natural world in the 18th century, but I am sure the concept goes back farther than that.
Kathleen - Dr. Tatum, do you see reason for optimism about the future of racial relations in the US?
BDT - Yes I do, though it will require hard work. I am encouraged by my students (of all races) who really want the opportunity to engage in dialogue, and are willing to confront the hard questions of unearned privilege and social inequity. Change is possible, and the fact that so many people are reading my book and passing it on to friends and family is a sign to me that people want to get beyond this problem of racism in our society.
tav - In a school that is 10% African American, do you feel the students would be more comfortable all in the same class, or spread out at random as done with all the other students?
BDT - Being the 'only one' in a class is always hard. I think it is better to cluster students so that there is a critical mass (at least 20%) in a class. It would be better to have some classes with 20% and others with none, than to have each person isolated as a "token" throughout the school. Tokenism leads more often to stereotyping, and places tremendous pressure on the "representative" student.
anna/MT - Dr. Tatum, if you wanted educators to better understand one single thing about race relations and education, what would it be?
BDT - Being "color-blind" is not a good thing. It is important to acknowledge the significance of race in a young person's experience. It is also important to give young people a forum for talking about issues of race and help them to understand that they can do something about injustice in our society. So can teachers.
CG - BDT, Your response to tav intrigues me because I often work in a school with numerous ethnic groups.
CG - Dr. Tatum, So you feel race is substantially driven my economics?
BDT - yes, in a multiethnic school, students have the opportunity to learn a lot from each other. However, the adults sometimes have to help create an environment in which dialogue can take place. Especially if the groups are segregated residentially, putting them all in the same school by itself will not solve the problem. But as I pointed out earlier, there are very specific things teachers can do to create bridges for interaction - cooperative learning, group projects, facilitated dialogue groups,etc.
Kathleen - I can't believe the hour is over! Dr. Tatum, our deepest appreciation for what you have offered tonight and during your entire career. I look forward to more discussions in the future. Thank you for honoring Teachers.Net with your presence tonight. Thank you to all participants. Good night!
BDT - Thank you for the opportunity.
