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Teachers Grade Merit Pay – A Teachers.Net Chatboard Poll
By Teachers.Net News Desk
Teachers on the main chatboard responded to the question:
Is merit pay for teachers a good idea?
Their responses are copied below, raw and unedited.
Posted by Izziey
MERIT PAY!! You have to be kidding! At our
school teachers cheat on tests as it is, I’m sure many
teachers would teach to the test if they know their pay
checks depended on it. I teach at a low income-low
performing title 1 school. We are lucky to get kids at
grade level and proficient or even below proficient. We
have a difficult time getting parents involved and getting
kids to read, do math, and their homework. I would love to
be optimistic; but how can you compare my school in COMPTON
to a school in a more affluent area where parents get
tutors and have technology to teach their kids.THERE IS NO
COMPARISON
Posted by anon
I agree
I also think that if districts laid off the crappy teachers,
instead of the brand new ones (could be some overlap, of
course), schools would be better off. I wish that teachers
would be treated like other employees in other industries,
where you can actually get fired.
Posted by Tallytchr
But we’re really NOT like other industries…
Industry can control their product, so the employee can have a
reasonable expectation of a level playing field. If that
employee works harder than the other employees, it’s easy to see
where the effort makes the difference.
Education is a process not a product. I truly believe that merit
pay is a misplaced concept for something that involves so many
variables a teaching and learning.
Hence, I am a great teacher, right? Of course not, I could be a
lazy, careless teacher but since I receive top quality products
from the producers (lets face it lawyers and doctors kids have a
leg up on the kids from the projects).
Don’t base Merit Pay on test scores? What else can you use?
Then you get into the squishy area of intangibles of what makes a
good teacher. You know one when you see one? Yes, but who is
the going to be the person tagging “a good teacher”? Building
politics are always a factor in those kinds of evaluations.
My problem with Merit Pay is and always has been this important
factor. WHO gets to decide what determines a good teacher. If
it’s test scores, WHO gets to determine what is considered grade
level material and WHO is choosing the testing material used?
Right now, we’re using tests that were never meant to evaluate
TEACHER effectiveness.
I don’t know about other teachers, but I shake my head when I
look at the math core curriculum tested. WHO decided that range,
median, and mode needed to be learned in second grade? WHO
thinks it’s more important that a 7 year old know flips, than to
concentrate on really learning the basic math facts.
whether I get Merit Pay or not?
Yes, we need to get rid of crappy teachers. The way to do that
is to hire administrators who have the courage to do their job.
We don’t really need Merit Pay to do that.
Posted by Rebecca
Quoting Tallytchr:
> Yes, we need to get rid of crappy teachers. The way to do that
> is to hire administrators who have the courage to do their job.
> We don’t really need Merit Pay to do that.
This is what is absolutely necessary to improve our schools. Right
now, so many administrators do not document as necessary to get rid
of those teachers who somehow made it to tenure but who could care
less about teaching
Posted by cboo
We are in a “poverty” school with
little parental participation, free lunches for 85+ per cent,
and children who don’t get the basic care at home. Yes, we
are doing well, but not as well as schools who have lots of
money and parents who care more about their children than they
do themselves. We provide the most stable environment for a
great percentage of our children. Who can expect them to
exceed expectations when they are worried about what’s going
on at home and where their next meal is coming from.
Posted by unsigned
Another problem…
“Good” teachers that have never taught at title I, low income
schools do not WANT to go to them. Why do you think these
schools sometimes have to keep less than perfect teachers?
I started out at Title I, low income and have stayed there for
the kids. Many good teachers that get their foot in the door by
starting at our school, leave for the higher income schools as
soon as they are able to. We do have a lot of good teachers
that make the decision to stay, but most leave. Teachers that
have never taught at a title I school are not knocking on our
door asking for a position either.
Posted by debi
Perhaps that is where the “merit” pay should come in to play.
Rather than using test scores to determine good teaching (we all
know that is not valid) pay teachers who are willing to teach at
Title 1 schools more money than teachers who teach in affluent
suburbs. I teach in an upper middle class neighborhood with
families who are very committed to their children’s education. Does
it make me a “bad” teacher to not want to go somewhere where I would
have to work much harder for less pay? NO! Heck, I make less than
half what my husband makes in software design yet have a lot more
education, have to update my credential and all other kinds of
things he does not have to deal with. I would consider moving to a
high poverty school if it meant I would make more money!! But what
incentive is there to go? I admire teachers who do stick it out in
Title 1 schools despite the conditions and the lower pay. You
should all be paid much more.
Posted by anon
because there are so many teachers that aren’t trying, that coast
by on tenure, and that aren’t effective. I am fully prepared to
defend my job, my skills and my abilities. Yes, different schools
have different clients. Yes, each child is different. But that
doesn’t mean that we should “coast”. And that is what many
teachers do.
Posted by paula
My pay should depend upon how a student feels like filling out a
standardized test? I can read a standardized test with no effort or
dramatically or even emphasizing the right answers, but that is not
teaching.
My merit is my training and experience.
I don’t know any teachers that aren’t doing the job. I may work at a
school that isn’t the same as others, but I still do not know a teacher
that isn’t working.
My teacher friend next door has her lessons in files, does a magnificent
job, keeps her room environment immaculate, does amazingly well with
students, but isn’t the least bit creative. She is fun and competitive.
The kids love her.
I am about as opposite from her as can be. I use last years lessons as
a guide, but change them up nearly every year. I know my kids and I can
do better, and I do the research. This results in more “head” time and
less time spent on visible criteria, but I know my lessons are top
notch. My students leave knowing how to think. My kids love me, too.
Who is a better teacher? I don’t think we can be compared.
Who should get the merit pay, my scores aren’t necessarily as high as
hers, but I also get the kids that other teachers think need that extra
“mom” help, she doesn’t have the time to slow down and help her “tough”
ones, the just MUST fit her box. Does that make her a better teacher?
Maybe, who knows?
Posted by Elena
This Obama initiative has really got me worried. I teach foreign
languages at an excellent high school. However, we don’t have any
standardized tests that measure foreign language ability. Does that mean
I don’t get merit pay? What about elementary art, music, and PE
teachers? Are they excluded as well?
Another problem – What if they gave merit pay to teachers who pursued
advanced degrees? I, among many, can’t afford to get one!
I also heard that he wants to reward math and science teachers. What
that translates to is that you can be a horrible teacher but if your
field is in short supply, you get rewarded. Sounds strange to me. To be
perfectly fair, I believe that educators who teach Pre-K through grade 2
deserve more money than I do. I’ve been there and teaching high school
is a breeze compared to that! Isn’t it just as important to teach
students to read/write as to perform calculus?
Last of all, who decides what teachers get merit pay? Administrators?
I know many teachers whose administrators are harassing and mistreating
them, even though they may be top-notch teachers.
I really don’t think it would work.
Posted by cboo
Once again, who is going to decide who merits what? Test scores can’t
be the basis. You can’t compare oranges to apples. I have been in a
Title school all my teaching career. In many ways it is more
rewarding than more affluent schools. It’s really obvious if you
coast (that’s not the rewarding part). There is always some child
that you hopefully can make a difference in their lives.
Posted by girl in gulfport
And you have to remember that not all states have tenure so teachers
contracts are up every year. What happens if you tick off the principal?
Then you get a bad review. So then you don’t get paid as well as someone
who can kiss a bit of backside?
Posted by Steve
Merit pay – would make our schools better places.
Nothing bothers me more than the fact that I get paid what the
teacher in the next room to me gets paid and he drinks. He
comes to work with nothing done, his kids run wild, the poor
guy’s got massive problems and I work my tail off.
I deserve more money than this guy but every year we get the
same raise because we started in the same year. Does that make
SENSE?
No. I’m not afraid to stand on my teaching – come in my room,
and see for yourself. Ask my students’ parents if I do a good
job – and if they say no, I want to know what their thoughts
because no teacher is the perfect teacher.
But we act like we are and we act like we all are. We tell kids
that school is supposed to prepare them for the real world but
nothing is less like the real world than school. We tell kids
they have to toe the line in school because if they don’t
they’ll get fired at their real jobs and then they watch this
poor guy slop in every morning and put his head down on his
desk and try to sleep it off while the kids’ copy yesterday’s
notes from the board again.
Posted by Rebecca, to Steve
If there was a way to fairly assess teachers, I would agree with
you 100%. But the problem is that there is not a way. Test
scores don’t even get close to telling the story and not all
teachers (like specials) directly affect testing scores.
And if you base it on observations, what about all the politics
in schools? I have watched new teachers come in who become best
friends with the administration and keep their jobs even though
they don’t teach much, show up late, dress inappropriately, etc.
But administration gives them glowing reviews because they are
friends.
Then there is the teacher who IS making a difference and striving
to be the best teacher possible but isn’t liked by
administration for one reason or another. That teacher may get
inaccurately bad observations just because the administration
doesn’t like that teacher.
So how do we fairly set up merit pay so that we actually do
reward the great teachers and not just the teachers who are well
liked or the teachers who happen to get the smartest kids?
Posted by Tallytchr
How would Merit Pay improve your school Steve?
The bad teacher next door would still have a job. You’d just be
paid more for doing yours.
To truly make your school better (as opposed to just making YOUR
situation more fair) it takes an administrator to get RID of the bad
teacher, not just make sure you don’t both make the same salary.
What is better for your school if the teacher next door still has
his job but you now get paid more?
Posted by Steve
It’s a fair question. I don’t like at all the current method and
emphasis on a yearly standardized test. I do recognize that politics
plays a role in things – Rebecca, in everything. That’s life. I’m not
much of a toady to the principal either but I’m not foolish enough to
think that we can make a new world or a school that has no politics
in it.
And I’d be foolish too to think that merit pay isn’t going to happen
so my advice to my fellow teachers is – be a part of the change.
Raise your voice as to how it should work. Don’t waste your time
fighting it.
You don’t think in every office there aren’t raises given because
someone’s got a better relationship with the boss? Frustrating – but
we live through that and will continue to. Worse things happen.
is any assessment perfectly fair? Nothing in life is perfectly fair?
And any system once put into place can be modified but it’s got to
start somewhere.
Here’s what I’d like to see. I’d like to see the use of surveys as
part of an assessment – business uses them. I’ll put that in a
different post – I like to talk about this too much and my wife wants
me to go do the shopping. But the surveys idea makes some of our
colleagues in the profession very angry…
Posted by Rebecca
And in the business world, where employees are getting promotions and
raises based on their relationship with the boss and not their work, no
good is done (except the person getting the raise). In situations
like that, nothing is improved in the business and likely things are
made worse because you don’t have the right person doing the job.
The same thing will happen in education. In so many schools which are
filled with politics, you will find teachers getting merit pay who are
just playing the game and doing nothing to improve education. So
suddenly we will be throwing more money at teachers and we WON’T see an
improvement in education. The teachers who care will still care and
being doing their best or they will get fed up and leave education.
And the teachers who don’t care will just find ways to play the game
that have nothing to do with improving education.
So I don’t see how merit pay in ANY way, shape or form will be able to
improve schools. And we may see a decrease in the quality of education
as more teachers focus on playing the game.
What we need are administrators who have the balls to do the right
thing, get rid of the teachers who aren’t doing their jobs and seek out
the best teachers possible. We need administrators who push their
teachers to excel and give them the resources to do so. We need
administrators who are talented at giving valuable feedback and
coaching teachers for the purpose of improving learning not just for
the purpose of filling out an observation form.
Merit pay will NOT encourage any of that
Posted by AnneCT
Merit pay doesn’t work
Thank you T Net for bringing this up. I do agree that both
articles in this strand articulate the issues with merit pay
very well. In my opinion both authors basically reach the same
conclusion of comparing apples to oranges. There can be no
standard of evaluation to base merit on because there are too many
variables.
I have been fortunate enough to have taught in districts that
have tried it and seen the disastrous effects before I got into
this profession 25 years ago. The staff that is still around to
recount the tales paint a pretty grim picture. The first thing
to go was collaboration! Teachers became so paranoid that
someone would take credit for their ideas that they stopped
sharing, stopped consulting with each other, stopped helping
children (bottom line), and started looking out for number one!
A Bd of Ed in a district near mine with the same demographic
(upper middle class) proposed this at the last negotiations.
Thankfully they were ill prepared to make their case. The
teacher’s Union had done their homework and had much evidence
to support their position. I do think with the economy the way
it is, most discussions of merit pay are dead in the water.
Trying to hold onto positions is the priority.
However I am not naive enough to think it will not come up
again and again. Do not get me wrong, we all know teachers who
put in the least amount of effort, make all others look bad, or
blow so much smoke up the right *ss that they keep getting
rehired. I’d love to know a way to reach those people to change
their attitudes or get rid of them. Merit pay is not the way.
Those teachers will realize what they need to do first and they
will succeed in doing it.
I agree that many factors both inside and outside a classroom
need to be shifted to even give this incentive plan a chance to
be broached. The big nut is SPED! How can we even begin to
factor the biggest budget item into this situation??? JMHO
MORE ON MERIT PAY: In “Merit Pay Problematic, Money Is Not the Ultimate Motivator for Teachers,” Marion Brady, a former supporter of merit pay for teachers tells why it doesn’t work.
