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Re: "the myth of underpaid teachers" no longer true!
Posted by Clarification on 7/23/09

    What I referred to in a previous post about getting certified in NY:
    2 decades ago- prior to the PRAXIS exams, there were NTE's (National Teacher Exams).
    NY required a LOT of them (three CORE Battery tests and a Specialty Area), while PA
    required only one (specialty area). Unfair testing? -perhaps... it was NOT "National"
    if everyone was not required to take and pass the same thing! There was reciprocity
    for NY State teachers in many other states (with the exception being California).
    Again, this was decades ago.

    I did not take the PRAXIS, and I am not familiar with what PA requires now. I am
    merely referring to the requirements that were in place about 20 years ago when it
    appeared to be more difficult to obtain a teaching license. I too, took three parts of
    the NTE Core Battery test prior to graduating college, and passed with the highest
    score possible.

    This brings us back to the "stiffening up" of standards. The National Boards for
    Teacher Certification was an attempt to identify HIGHLY ACCOMPLISHED teachers. It is
    rigorous, demanding, time consuming, and expensive. The rewards are: you get to
    say "I'm National Board certified," you learn a lot, and you get some Act 48 credits..
    There is often no further reward for the thousands of teachers who persue the
    certificate. Perhaps we should promote this type of certificate, and "weed out" the
    teachers who can't pass. maybe this process should be the NEW way to certify. We would
    have 83 percent LESS teachers out there...since the passing rate for NBCT is hovering
    around 17 percent.
    Agree with what everyone else said- it is very easy to become a teacher. National
    Board is the only cert that is standard across state lines....and it is by far the
    most difficult to obtain. We should all try it.

    On 7/22/09, Oh New York wrote:
    > The individual talking about getting certified in New York compared to Pennsylvania
    > has some of the facts mixed up. In PA there are tests that one must take to become
    a
    > teacher in any field. They are called the Praxis tests, and depending on the field
    > you choose there could be several that you have to take.
    >
    > The 1st Praxis test is the same for everyone, and it tests your reading, writing,
    and
    > math skills. IF you do not pass this test than you can not teach in the state of PA.
    >
    > The 2nd Praxis test concentrates on specific content knowledge. If you are going to
    > teach social studies, then the test will consist of questions solely on social
    studies
    > content (history, government, psychology, economics, etc)
    >
    > Now I will not try to fool anyone...if you fail the praxis 1 exam than you must be
    > brain dead. I don't know of a single person that studied for it, and quite frankly
    I
    > went out with a group of friends the night before and stayed out until 3 in the
    > morning, took my praxis 1 test early the next morning and passed with flying
    colors.
    > It was a joke.
    >
    > The praxis 2 tests are where it gets a little tougher, but it is still not that
    bad.
    >
    > Now in new york they even test you on your knowledge of educators in the field?
    > Sounds like a waste of time to me, what good is that going to do you when it comes
    to
    > teaching? It isn't going to do any good. New York sounds like it does have tougher
    > requirements than PA, but it is not that much harder. And I agree with the previous
    > poster who says that getting certified to teach is a breeze, because it is.
    >
    > I am still bias towards PA though :)
    >
    >
    >
    >
    > On 7/22/09, let me clarify once again wrote:
    >> I have heard that getting certified to teach in New York is more difficult than it
    >> is here in PA...but I guess you didn't write down one specific aspect in your wall
    >> post. I am happy to hear that you were able to get your certification in New York
    >> and from what you've wrote, you seem to be a very good teacher. But let me ask
    >> you...upon graduating from high school, how long would it take someone to become a
    >> teacher in the state of New York? Lets pretend that we all live in New York, and
    >> know right away upon graduating from high school that we are going to teach in the
    >> state of new york...does one need only a bachelors degree and a certification?
    >> Hypothetically if you passed all of those tests you were talking about, how long
    >> would that take you? I'm willing to bet that it's still not that long of a time.
    >> It is a matter of taking some tests, which really is not that impressive to me.
    You
    >> are a teacher, how many students to you have that are incredibly bright but do not
    >> do so well at tests? And how many students do you have that are excellent test
    >> takers but struggle socially and struggle in other areas academically? A friend of
    >> mine took his sat and almost got a perfect score, yet he did not have the capacity
    >> to get through his first year in college.
    >>
    >> I am a teacher and I love everything about my job. But as much as I hate to say
    >> it...people should not look at us like they would look at a lawyer or a doctor as
    >> far as being a professional is concerned. I'm sure that you will find 22 year old
    >> teachers in New York city doing the same work that a 55 year old teacher is doing.
    >> That is the point I am making here. NO OTHER PROFESSION can someone graduate from
    >> college and enter the field so IMMEDIATELY! Again, not that familiar with new
    yorks
    >> standards so I think you for taking the time to enlighten me, but it is still not
    >> impressive. If I lived in new york, I would still be saying the same thing.
    >>
    >> People have recommended to me that it is smarter to get the teaching job before
    >> going to graduate school for several reasons. 1) Many school districts will pay
    for
    >> you to go to graduate school...so why pay out of your own pocket? (The school
    >> district I work for has a 100&37; payment program...so I will be getting my
    > doctorate
    >> absolutely free). 2nd reason...The school has to pay more money to a teacher with
    a
    >> masters degree. Many schools are hurting for money right now so they choose the
    >> less experienced teacher to save some money.
    >>
    >> In no other profession is it recommended to forgo graduate school before entering
    >> the profession. it is actually IMPOSSIBLE to enter the profession before you
    attend
    >> SEVERAL YEARS of graduate school. So once again I say...I love teaching...but it
    is
    >> WAY TO EASY to get certified ANYWHERE...PERIOD.
    >>
    >>
    >>
    >> On 7/22/09, Not as easy in ALL states wrote:
    >>> "Let me clarify" wrote about how easy it is to becaome a teacher- I believe that
    >>> you are in the state of PA- as am I. That said, I certified in NEW YORK first,
    >>> where it was more difficult to obtain a teacher's license. Did you know that NYC
    >>> has a separate license as well? More paperwork, interviews, demonstration
    >>> lessons, written exams, etc? I wasn't even sure that my interviewers knew more
    >>> than I did!!! How sad is that?! I literally "sailed" into NJ and PA, ~ my NYS
    >>> Teaching license was a gold mine! In NY back then, there were tests for
    >>> specialty areas as well as three main NTE's (Communication skills, general
    >>> knowledge, and one other area that dealt specifically with your knowledge about
    >>> education/educators in the field). Not everyone passed. In fact, after 4 years
    >>> in college, if you couldn't passs the NTE's - you might as well deliver
    >>> newspapers. Not true today, where in some states, the tests are so watered-down
    >>> that a high schooler could pass them! In PA- no such tests. I took one little
    >>> specialty area test - scored in the 99&37;ile, and boom...teacher extraordinaire!
    >>> So, I guess it depends on what your state mandates as far as certification. PA
    >>> was extremely easy...ENTER the NATIONAL BOARDS! Since National Board
    >>> Certification was supposed to be "an even playing field," those who certify
    >>> truly are "highly accomplished teachers." Let me tell you- less than 20&37;
    >> certify
    >>> on their first attempt. This is what should happen throughout the nation....a
    >>> standard of excellence for every teacher- not the state~by~state Mickey Mouse
    >>> standards that vary so significantly. Unfortunately, those who do receive NBCT
    >>> get nothing in return, since stipends are now being yanked out from under them.
    >>> Even National Board certified Teachers are not respected as professionals after
    >>> the rigorous, time-consuming, difficult certification process.
    >>> Hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm....sounds like we might need to promote National Boards as a
    >>> way of increasing the respect and professionalism that we so desire. Just a
    >>> suggestion.
    >>>
    >>> On 7/22/09, let me clarify wrote:
    >>>> Joe you must have misunderstood me when I said that it was easy to become a
    >>>> teacher. Let me clarify...you are correct in saying that it is extremely
    >>>> difficult to get a JOB teaching. I live in PA and we have a teaching surplus
    >>>> that would make a lot of people cringe at the thought of getting a job. I had
    >>>> to fill out countless online applications, mail out tons of packets and go
    >>>> through countless interviews and demonstration lessons before I was offered 2
    >>>> teaching positions. So I agree with you on that point, it is very difficult
    >>> to
    >>>> obtain a job as a teacher.
    >>>>
    >>>> What I was trying to say in my previous post is that becoming a certified
    >>>> teacher is ridiculously easy. You only need to go to college for 4 years and
    >>>> WHAM you are ready to go find a job. 21 year olds are becoming teachers and
    >>> are
    >>>> sometimes teaching students that are 20 years old...that was the point I was
    >>>> making. Yes, we do have to go to graduate school...but come on what
    >>> profession
    >>>> doesn't? The fact that we are able to jump right in after only 4 years is the
    >>>> reason why the market is saturated, and it is just way to easy.
    >>>>
    >>>> I started at 44,000 with only a bachelors degree (and yes, I still say it's
    >>>> ridiculous) and will top out at 110,000. My graduate school is free and in
    >>> two
    >>>> more years when I get my masters degree I will be making 57000. That is a lot
    >>>> of money for someone just 2 years out of college who does not work in the
    >>>> summers. That's what I was saying.
    >>>>
    >>>>
    >>>> On 7/22/09, Joe wrote:
    >>>>> The pay is good? Getting a teaching job is easy?
    >>>>>
    >>>>> Yes, the pay is good in my state, at $38k to start. However, I started fresh
    >>>>> out of college 30 years ago, at $30k, working as an actuary. I sent out
    >>>>> three resumes, typewritten on rag-content erasable typewriter paper, and was
    >>>>> at my desk working two weeks later!
    >>>>>
    >>>>> Today, we must fill out online applications, AND repeat the same information
    >>>>> in a C.V., attend successive interviews, and be treated as though we're
    >>>>> running for the US Senate. During the interview, we're told all about the
    >>>>> ehealth insurance plan by the HR "Professional" (I actually want to teach
    >>>>> for money. Sending a copy of a health insurance plan to my mortgage company
    >>>>> won't stop a foreclosure, last time I checked).
    >>>>>
    >>>>> Oh and I do know two teachers who were let go in a local school. The school
    >>>>> let them go, and kept another mediocre alternate-route graduate on for next
    >>>>> year.
    >>>>>
    >>>>>
    >>>>> On 7/22/09, Pa Teacher wrote:
    >>>>>> It is true that teachers are not technically offered a contract when they
    >>>>>> are initially hired, but what you talk about rarely happens. I know if
    >>>>> ONE
    >>>>>> teacher who worked in a very good school district in the suburbs of
    >>>>>> pittsburgh who was let go because the school had to get rid of her
    >>>>> position
    >>>>>> due to the budget issues. If you know if teachers who taught in the city
    >>>>>> and moved to the suburbs, then were let go and the district hired someone
    >>>>>> else to replace them....the only think I can think of is that they are
    >>>>> just
    >>>>>> no good. A school district is not going to get rid of its good teachers,
    >>>>> it
    >>>>>> doesn't matter if they are first year or not. Substitute teaching for 8
    >>>>>> years and not able to find a job?? Again, maybe they just aren't that
    >>>>>> impressive and should consider leaving the state.
    >>>>>>
    >>>>>> I completely agree with you that teaching is a profession and we should
    >>>>>> approach the job as professionals. Our pay here in PA is great and again,
    >>>>>> if you are one of those unfortunate teachers who work at a low paying
    >>>>>> school, you can leave the district for more money if you choose. But to
    >>>>> say
    >>>>>> that we are all professionals and act as such?? Do you watch the news?
    >>>>>> Becoming a teacher is one of the easiest things in the world to do.
    >>>>> Someone
    >>>>>> who posted earlier talks about how an engineer makes 80,000, lawyers make
    >>>>> so
    >>>>>> much money as well as doctors. Lawyers and doctors go through a lot more
    >>>>>> than we do, and the last time I checked you need more than a bachelors to
    >>>>>> become either a lawyer or a doctor. When a 21 year old can jump right
    >>>>> into
    >>>>>> the field and do the same work that a 30 year teacher is doing, then that
    >>>>> is
    >>>>>> a little too easy. I love teaching, but I have discovered that a majority
    >>>>>> of the new teachers that I meet today "settle" on teaching because they
    >>>>>> didn't know what to do with their lives. They know the pay and benefits
    >>>>> are
    >>>>>> good, and they know that it is incredibly easy to get certified to teach.
    >>>>>> Raise the standards to become a teacher, and maybe we can have better
    >>>>>> footing to complain about things. Not that I would complain...we work 9
    >>>>>> months a year and many of us make a lot of money. Given the choice to do
    >>>>>> what we do, or be a "normal" worker making just as much with 2 weeks off a
    >>>>>> year...Teachers have it made.
    >>>>>>
    >>>>>>
    >>>>>> On 7/22/09, No one gets a "contract" here wrote:
    >>>>>>> Suburban PA teachers get "hired"- not actually PROMISED a job- for a
    >>>>>>> period of one year. If you're not offered a "contract" after one
    >>>>>>> complete year, you're out. Period.
    >>>>>>> People I know have left city jobs thinking that they would "try" the
    >>>>>>> suburbs since they were "offered" a position. After a year- no job. They
    >>>>>>> are per diem subs. Occasionally, long term comes up, but they are
    >>>>>>> jostled around each year from school-to-school, often the DAY BEFORE
    >>>>>>> students arrive.
    >>>>>>> My own kids have had 50&37; of their teachers as subs without permanent
    >>>>>>> contracts. One teacher had been a "move around" sub without a contract
    >>>>>>> for 8 years. She does not know where/if she is teaching in a few weeks.
    >>>>>>> This is no way to live and raise a family.... but, somehow, we teachers
    >>>>>>> accept and bow to this kind of treatment. The "professionalism" that is
    >>>>>>> expected from us far surpasses the way we are sometimes treated, so I
    >>>>>>> understand where bitter feelings come from. However, we can put our
    >>>>>>> frustrations to good use in the form of letters, phone calls, and EMails
    >>>>>>> to the "powers that be" instead of dwelling in negativity on a website
    >>>>>>> that won't do anyone any good. We are professionals, worthy of fair
    >>>>>>> wages and respect- the same as any other profession. We must act
    >>>>>>> accordingly, and support each other in our endeavors. Sometimes that
    >>>>>>> requires sympathy or empathy, sometimes it's tough love. Stay strong. We
    >>>>>>> teachers shape the future like no one else can! (or WILL) For that, we
    >>>>>>> are worthy.
    >>>>>>>
    >>>>>>> On 7/21/09, sped wrote:
    >>>>>>>> On 7/21/09, maybe I'm bitter wrote:
    >>>>>>>>> I'm sorry, but I must say that this sound pretty aggressive. This
    >>>>>>>> board exists for people to
    >>>>>>>>> be able to freely express their opinions/ feelings. No one is forced
    >>>>>>>> to read it.
    >>>>>>>>
    >>>>>>>> True, and I'm free to express my opinions about their opinions. And,
    >>>>>>>> the fact that said poster's opinions include that teachers have no
    >>>>>>>> rights anywhere in the country, when in fact teachers have above
    >>>>>>> average
    >>>>>>>> to excellent employment rights compared to most other professions, I
    >>>>>>>> feel it's necessary to bring up a point of reason.
    >>>>>>>>
    >>>>>>>>> If one has
    >>>>>>>>> never been in a situation on the job where they were abused, it's
    >>>>>>>>>difficult to understand
    >>>>>>>>> someone else's emotions.
    >>>>>>>>
    >>>>>>>> Ah, but I have. Well, I haven't been "abused," but I have been in
    >>>>>>>> situations that were less than ideal, not what I was hired to do, and
    >>>>>>>> the people evaluating me kept getting me mixed up with someone else
    >>>>>>>> new, in the same department, and who had the same first name (he got
    >>>>>>>> non-renewed too... I wonder if one of us didn't deserve it and the
    >>>>>>> other
    >>>>>>>> did, but they just decided to nix us both because they couldn't sort
    >>>>>>> out
    >>>>>>>> who was who). I have been non-renewed once, and laid off once. I
    >>>>>>> moved
    >>>>>>>> on, have taught successfully in an above average suburban Chicago
    >>>>>>>> district for years, and am now a sped administrator in that district.
    >>>>>>>>
    >>>>>>>> Point is, it goes both ways. You're allowed to freely express your
    >>>>>>>> opinions, but so is everyone else. That's kind of the point...
    >>>>>>>>
    >>>>>>>>> The problem with NYC, there is only one board of ed. If you are "let
    >>>>>>>> go" with
    >>>>>>>>> "discontinuance" from one school, that means you can't be hired by any
    >>>>>>>> other of 1500
    >>>>>>>>> schools in the city. That seems to me a little harsh. I would've been
    >>>>>>>> happy to leave the
    >>>>>>>>> school and find a "better fit", but that wasn't given to me as an
    >>>>>>> option.
    >>>>>>>>
    >>>>>>>> Well, if Bank of America fired you at a branch in NYC, they wouldn't
    >>>>>>>> hire you in Boston. You live in one big district, that's the way it
    >>>>>>> is.
    >>>>>>>> If you look at it objectively, as a tax payer and possibly a parent
    >>>>>>> who
    >>>>>>>> sends kids to the district, why would you want your kid's school to
    >>>>>>> hire
    >>>>>>>> teachers fired with cause from another school in the district?
    >>>>>>>>
    >>>>>>>>> I wish the union AT LEAST made "sure all the paperwork and
    >>>>>>>> observations are done
    >>>>>>>>> correctly" which was not the case.
    >>>>>>>>
    >>>>>>>> Did you ask them to?
    >>>>>>>>
    >>>>>>>>> I sincerely hope that misconducts of such nature are
    >>>>>>>>> less prevalent outside NYC.
    >>>>>>>>
    >>>>>>>> They are not. First year (second, third, etc.) teachers get fired
    >>>>>>> until
    >>>>>>>> they have tenure. I don't know how long that takes in NYC.
    >>>>>>>>
    >>>>>>>> I don't know your contract or anything about teaching in NY. However,
    >>>>>>>> in IL and in my district, you can have good observations and not be
    >>>>>>>> rehired. You don't need a reason at all. Now, being terminated with a
    >>>>>>>> bar to rehire would take more documentation (though a non-rehire
    >>>>>>>> probably isn't getting back into my district even without an official
    >>>>>>>> termination, but we're relatively small).
    >>>>>>>>

     
     

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