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Re: "the myth of underpaid teachers" no longer true!
Posted by Elena on 7/23/09

    I do not agree with making those National Boards our standard in producing competent
    teachers.

    I consider myself a highly successful teacher. I love the job, my students and I have a
    solid grasp of my subject area. However, I'd never pass that test in a million years in
    the way it is structured. It tends to weed out teachers based on personality and favors
    those with extroverted personalities.

    For example, there is a section measuring competence "beyond the classroom." To be
    perfectly honest, I don't do much beyond the classroom. I am not lazy. I am very
    introverted. I am not the type who leads committees, generates fundraisers, and
    initiates partnerships within the community. I don't think that should determine my fate
    as a teacher.

    I'm confident they don't require this on exams for doctors, attorneys, or CPAs.

    On 7/23/09, Clarification wrote:
    > What I referred to in a previous post about getting certified in NY:
    > 2 decades ago- prior to the PRAXIS exams, there were NTE's (National Teacher Exams).
    > NY required a LOT of them (three CORE Battery tests and a Specialty Area), while PA
    > required only one (specialty area). Unfair testing? -perhaps... it was NOT "National"
    > if everyone was not required to take and pass the same thing! There was reciprocity
    > for NY State teachers in many other states (with the exception being California).
    > Again, this was decades ago.
    >
    > I did not take the PRAXIS, and I am not familiar with what PA requires now. I am
    > merely referring to the requirements that were in place about 20 years ago when it
    > appeared to be more difficult to obtain a teaching license. I too, took three parts of
    > the NTE Core Battery test prior to graduating college, and passed with the highest
    > score possible.
    >
    > This brings us back to the "stiffening up" of standards. The National Boards for
    > Teacher Certification was an attempt to identify HIGHLY ACCOMPLISHED teachers. It is
    > rigorous, demanding, time consuming, and expensive. The rewards are: you get to
    > say "I'm National Board certified," you learn a lot, and you get some Act 48 credits..
    > There is often no further reward for the thousands of teachers who persue the
    > certificate. Perhaps we should promote this type of certificate, and "weed out" the
    > teachers who can't pass. maybe this process should be the NEW way to certify. We would
    > have 83 percent LESS teachers out there...since the passing rate for NBCT is hovering
    > around 17 percent.
    > Agree with what everyone else said- it is very easy to become a teacher. National
    > Board is the only cert that is standard across state lines....and it is by far the
    > most difficult to obtain. We should all try it.
    >
    > On 7/22/09, Oh New York wrote:
    >> The individual talking about getting certified in New York compared to Pennsylvania
    >> has some of the facts mixed up. In PA there are tests that one must take to become
    > a
    >> teacher in any field. They are called the Praxis tests, and depending on the field
    >> you choose there could be several that you have to take.
    >>
    >> The 1st Praxis test is the same for everyone, and it tests your reading, writing,
    > and
    >> math skills. IF you do not pass this test than you can not teach in the state of PA.
    >>
    >> The 2nd Praxis test concentrates on specific content knowledge. If you are going to
    >> teach social studies, then the test will consist of questions solely on social
    > studies
    >> content (history, government, psychology, economics, etc)
    >>
    >> Now I will not try to fool anyone...if you fail the praxis 1 exam than you must be
    >> brain dead. I don't know of a single person that studied for it, and quite frankly
    > I
    >> went out with a group of friends the night before and stayed out until 3 in the
    >> morning, took my praxis 1 test early the next morning and passed with flying
    > colors.
    >> It was a joke.
    >>
    >> The praxis 2 tests are where it gets a little tougher, but it is still not that
    > bad.
    >>
    >> Now in new york they even test you on your knowledge of educators in the field?
    >> Sounds like a waste of time to me, what good is that going to do you when it comes
    > to
    >> teaching? It isn't going to do any good. New York sounds like it does have tougher
    >> requirements than PA, but it is not that much harder. And I agree with the previous
    >> poster who says that getting certified to teach is a breeze, because it is.
    >>
    >> I am still bias towards PA though :)
    >>
    >>
    >>
    >>
    >> On 7/22/09, let me clarify once again wrote:
    >>> I have heard that getting certified to teach in New York is more difficult than it
    >>> is here in PA...but I guess you didn't write down one specific aspect in your wall
    >>> post. I am happy to hear that you were able to get your certification in New York
    >>> and from what you've wrote, you seem to be a very good teacher. But let me ask
    >>> you...upon graduating from high school, how long would it take someone to become a
    >>> teacher in the state of New York? Lets pretend that we all live in New York, and
    >>> know right away upon graduating from high school that we are going to teach in the
    >>> state of new york...does one need only a bachelors degree and a certification?
    >>> Hypothetically if you passed all of those tests you were talking about, how long
    >>> would that take you? I'm willing to bet that it's still not that long of a time.
    >>> It is a matter of taking some tests, which really is not that impressive to me.
    > You
    >>> are a teacher, how many students to you have that are incredibly bright but do not
    >>> do so well at tests? And how many students do you have that are excellent test
    >>> takers but struggle socially and struggle in other areas academically? A friend of
    >>> mine took his sat and almost got a perfect score, yet he did not have the capacity
    >>> to get through his first year in college.
    >>>
    >>> I am a teacher and I love everything about my job. But as much as I hate to say
    >>> it...people should not look at us like they would look at a lawyer or a doctor as
    >>> far as being a professional is concerned. I'm sure that you will find 22 year old
    >>> teachers in New York city doing the same work that a 55 year old teacher is doing.
    >>> That is the point I am making here. NO OTHER PROFESSION can someone graduate from
    >>> college and enter the field so IMMEDIATELY! Again, not that familiar with new
    > yorks
    >>> standards so I think you for taking the time to enlighten me, but it is still not
    >>> impressive. If I lived in new york, I would still be saying the same thing.
    >>>
    >>> People have recommended to me that it is smarter to get the teaching job before
    >>> going to graduate school for several reasons. 1) Many school districts will pay
    > for
    >>> you to go to graduate school...so why pay out of your own pocket? (The school
    >>> district I work for has a 100&37; payment program...so I will be getting my
    >> doctorate
    >>> absolutely free). 2nd reason...The school has to pay more money to a teacher with
    > a
    >>> masters degree. Many schools are hurting for money right now so they choose the
    >>> less experienced teacher to save some money.
    >>>
    >>> In no other profession is it recommended to forgo graduate school before entering
    >>> the profession. it is actually IMPOSSIBLE to enter the profession before you
    > attend
    >>> SEVERAL YEARS of graduate school. So once again I say...I love teaching...but it
    > is
    >>> WAY TO EASY to get certified ANYWHERE...PERIOD.
    >>>
    >>>
    >>>
    >>> On 7/22/09, Not as easy in ALL states wrote:
    >>>> "Let me clarify" wrote about how easy it is to becaome a teacher- I believe that
    >>>> you are in the state of PA- as am I. That said, I certified in NEW YORK first,
    >>>> where it was more difficult to obtain a teacher's license. Did you know that NYC
    >>>> has a separate license as well? More paperwork, interviews, demonstration
    >>>> lessons, written exams, etc? I wasn't even sure that my interviewers knew more
    >>>> than I did!!! How sad is that?! I literally "sailed" into NJ and PA, ~ my NYS
    >>>> Teaching license was a gold mine! In NY back then, there were tests for
    >>>> specialty areas as well as three main NTE's (Communication skills, general
    >>>> knowledge, and one other area that dealt specifically with your knowledge about
    >>>> education/educators in the field). Not everyone passed. In fact, after 4 years
    >>>> in college, if you couldn't passs the NTE's - you might as well deliver
    >>>> newspapers. Not true today, where in some states, the tests are so watered-down
    >>>> that a high schooler could pass them! In PA- no such tests. I took one little
    >>>> specialty area test - scored in the 99&37;ile, and boom...teacher extraordinaire!
    >>>> So, I guess it depends on what your state mandates as far as certification. PA
    >>>> was extremely easy...ENTER the NATIONAL BOARDS! Since National Board
    >>>> Certification was supposed to be "an even playing field," those who certify
    >>>> truly are "highly accomplished teachers." Let me tell you- less than 20&37;
    >>> certify
    >>>> on their first attempt. This is what should happen throughout the nation....a
    >>>> standard of excellence for every teacher- not the state~by~state Mickey Mouse
    >>>> standards that vary so significantly. Unfortunately, those who do receive NBCT
    >>>> get nothing in return, since stipends are now being yanked out from under them.
    >>>> Even National Board certified Teachers are not respected as professionals after
    >>>> the rigorous, time-consuming, difficult certification process.
    >>>> Hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm....sounds like we might need to promote National Boards as a
    >>>> way of increasing the respect and professionalism that we so desire. Just a
    >>>> suggestion.
    >>>>
    >>>> On 7/22/09, let me clarify wrote:
    >>>>> Joe you must have misunderstood me when I said that it was easy to become a
    >>>>> teacher. Let me clarify...you are correct in saying that it is extremely
    >>>>> difficult to get a JOB teaching. I live in PA and we have a teaching surplus
    >>>>> that would make a lot of people cringe at the thought of getting a job. I had
    >>>>> to fill out countless online applications, mail out tons of packets and go
    >>>>> through countless interviews and demonstration lessons before I was offered 2
    >>>>> teaching positions. So I agree with you on that point, it is very difficult
    >>>> to
    >>>>> obtain a job as a teacher.
    >>>>>
    >>>>> What I was trying to say in my previous post is that becoming a certified
    >>>>> teacher is ridiculously easy. You only need to go to college for 4 years and
    >>>>> WHAM you are ready to go find a job. 21 year olds are becoming teachers and
    >>>> are
    >>>>> sometimes teaching students that are 20 years old...that was the point I was
    >>>>> making. Yes, we do have to go to graduate school...but come on what
    >>>> profession
    >>>>> doesn't? The fact that we are able to jump right in after only 4 years is the
    >>>>> reason why the market is saturated, and it is just way to easy.
    >>>>>
    >>>>> I started at 44,000 with only a bachelors degree (and yes, I still say it's
    >>>>> ridiculous) and will top out at 110,000. My graduate school is free and in
    >>>> two
    >>>>> more years when I get my masters degree I will be making 57000. That is a lot
    >>>>> of money for someone just 2 years out of college who does not work in the
    >>>>> summers. That's what I was saying.
    >>>>>
    >>>>>
    >>>>> On 7/22/09, Joe wrote:
    >>>>>> The pay is good? Getting a teaching job is easy?
    >>>>>>
    >>>>>> Yes, the pay is good in my state, at $38k to start. However, I started fresh
    >>>>>> out of college 30 years ago, at $30k, working as an actuary. I sent out
    >>>>>> three resumes, typewritten on rag-content erasable typewriter paper, and was
    >>>>>> at my desk working two weeks later!
    >>>>>>
    >>>>>> Today, we must fill out online applications, AND repeat the same information
    >>>>>> in a C.V., attend successive interviews, and be treated as though we're
    >>>>>> running for the US Senate. During the interview, we're told all about the
    >>>>>> ehealth insurance plan by the HR "Professional" (I actually want to teach
    >>>>>> for money. Sending a copy of a health insurance plan to my mortgage company
    >>>>>> won't stop a foreclosure, last time I checked).
    >>>>>>
    >>>>>> Oh and I do know two teachers who were let go in a local school. The school
    >>>>>> let them go, and kept another mediocre alternate-route graduate on for next
    >>>>>> year.
    >>>>>>
    >>>>>>
    >>>>>> On 7/22/09, Pa Teacher wrote:
    >>>>>>> It is true that teachers are not technically offered a contract when they
    >>>>>>> are initially hired, but what you talk about rarely happens. I know if
    >>>>>> ONE
    >>>>>>> teacher who worked in a very good school district in the suburbs of
    >>>>>>> pittsburgh who was let go because the school had to get rid of her
    >>>>>> position
    >>>>>>> due to the budget issues. If you know if teachers who taught in the city
    >>>>>>> and moved to the suburbs, then were let go and the district hired someone
    >>>>>>> else to replace them....the only think I can think of is that they are
    >>>>>> just
    >>>>>>> no good. A school district is not going to get rid of its good teachers,
    >>>>>> it
    >>>>>>> doesn't matter if they are first year or not. Substitute teaching for 8
    >>>>>>> years and not able to find a job?? Again, maybe they just aren't that
    >>>>>>> impressive and should consider leaving the state.
    >>>>>>>
    >>>>>>> I completely agree with you that teaching is a profession and we should
    >>>>>>> approach the job as professionals. Our pay here in PA is great and again,
    >>>>>>> if you are one of those unfortunate teachers who work at a low paying
    >>>>>>> school, you can leave the district for more money if you choose. But to
    >>>>>> say
    >>>>>>> that we are all professionals and act as such?? Do you watch the news?
    >>>>>>> Becoming a teacher is one of the easiest things in the world to do.
    >>>>>> Someone
    >>>>>>> who posted earlier talks about how an engineer makes 80,000, lawyers make
    >>>>>> so
    >>>>>>> much money as well as doctors. Lawyers and doctors go through a lot more
    >>>>>>> than we do, and the last time I checked you need more than a bachelors to
    >>>>>>> become either a lawyer or a doctor. When a 21 year old can jump right
    >>>>>> into
    >>>>>>> the field and do the same work that a 30 year teacher is doing, then that
    >>>>>> is
    >>>>>>> a little too easy. I love teaching, but I have discovered that a majority
    >>>>>>> of the new teachers that I meet today "settle" on teaching because they
    >>>>>>> didn't know what to do with their lives. They know the pay and benefits
    >>>>>> are
    >>>>>>> good, and they know that it is incredibly easy to get certified to teach.
    >>>>>>> Raise the standards to become a teacher, and maybe we can have better
    >>>>>>> footing to complain about things. Not that I would complain...we work 9
    >>>>>>> months a year and many of us make a lot of money. Given the choice to do
    >>>>>>> what we do, or be a "normal" worker making just as much with 2 weeks off a
    >>>>>>> year...Teachers have it made.
    >>>>>>>
    >>>>>>>
    >>>>>>> On 7/22/09, No one gets a "contract" here wrote:
    >>>>>>>> Suburban PA teachers get "hired"- not actually PROMISED a job- for a
    >>>>>>>> period of one year. If you're not offered a "contract" after one
    >>>>>>>> complete year, you're out. Period.
    >>>>>>>> People I know have left city jobs thinking that they would "try" the
    >>>>>>>> suburbs since they were "offered" a position. After a year- no job. They
    >>>>>>>> are per diem subs. Occasionally, long term comes up, but they are
    >>>>>>>> jostled around each year from school-to-school, often the DAY BEFORE
    >>>>>>>> students arrive.
    >>>>>>>> My own kids have had 50&37; of their teachers as subs without permanent
    >>>>>>>> contracts. One teacher had been a "move around" sub without a contract
    >>>>>>>> for 8 years. She does not know where/if she is teaching in a few weeks.
    >>>>>>>> This is no way to live and raise a family.... but, somehow, we teachers
    >>>>>>>> accept and bow to this kind of treatment. The "professionalism" that is
    >>>>>>>> expected from us far surpasses the way we are sometimes treated, so I
    >>>>>>>> understand where bitter feelings come from. However, we can put our
    >>>>>>>> frustrations to good use in the form of letters, phone calls, and EMails
    >>>>>>>> to the "powers that be" instead of dwelling in negativity on a website
    >>>>>>>> that won't do anyone any good. We are professionals, worthy of fair
    >>>>>>>> wages and respect- the same as any other profession. We must act
    >>>>>>>> accordingly, and support each other in our endeavors. Sometimes that
    >>>>>>>> requires sympathy or empathy, sometimes it's tough love. Stay strong. We
    >>>>>>>> teachers shape the future like no one else can! (or WILL) For that, we
    >>>>>>>> are worthy.
    >>>>>>>>
    >>>>>>>> On 7/21/09, sped wrote:
    >>>>>>>>> On 7/21/09, maybe I'm bitter wrote:
    >>>>>>>>>> I'm sorry, but I must say that this sound pretty aggressive. This
    >>>>>>>>> board exists for people to
    >>>>>>>>>> be able to freely express their opinions/ feelings. No one is forced
    >>>>>>>>> to read it.
    >>>>>>>>>
    >>>>>>>>> True, and I'm free to express my opinions about their opinions. And,
    >>>>>>>>> the fact that said poster's opinions include that teachers have no
    >>>>>>>>> rights anywhere in the country, when in fact teachers have above
    >>>>>>>> average
    >>>>>>>>> to excellent employment rights compared to most other professions, I
    >>>>>>>>> feel it's necessary to bring up a point of reason.
    >>>>>>>>>
    >>>>>>>>>> If one has
    >>>>>>>>>> never been in a situation on the job where they were abused, it's
    >>>>>>>>>>difficult to understand
    >>>>>>>>>> someone else's emotions.
    >>>>>>>>>
    >>>>>>>>> Ah, but I have. Well, I haven't been "abused," but I have been in
    >>>>>>>>> situations that were less than ideal, not what I was hired to do, and
    >>>>>>>>> the people evaluating me kept getting me mixed up with someone else
    >>>>>>>>> new, in the same department, and who had the same first name (he got
    >>>>>>>>> non-renewed too... I wonder if one of us didn't deserve it and the
    >>>>>>>> other
    >>>>>>>>> did, but they just decided to nix us both because they couldn't sort
    >>>>>>>> out
    >>>>>>>>> who was who). I have been non-renewed once, and laid off once. I
    >>>>>>>> moved
    >>>>>>>>> on, have taught successfully in an above average suburban Chicago
    >>>>>>>>> district for years, and am now a sped administrator in that district.
    >>>>>>>>>
    >>>>>>>>> Point is, it goes both ways. You're allowed to freely express your
    >>>>>>>>> opinions, but so is everyone else. That's kind of the point...
    >>>>>>>>>
    >>>>>>>>>> The problem with NYC, there is only one board of ed. If you are "let
    >>>>>>>>> go" with
    >>>>>>>>>> "discontinuance" from one school, that means you can't be hired by any
    >>>>>>>>> other of 1500
    >>>>>>>>>> schools in the city. That seems to me a little harsh. I would've been
    >>>>>>>>> happy to leave the
    >>>>>>>>>> school and find a "better fit", but that wasn't given to me as an
    >>>>>>>> option.
    >>>>>>>>>
    >>>>>>>>> Well, if Bank of America fired you at a branch in NYC, they wouldn't
    >>>>>>>>> hire you in Boston. You live in one big district, that's the way it
    >>>>>>>> is.
    >>>>>>>>> If you look at it objectively, as a tax payer and possibly a parent
    >>>>>>>> who
    >>>>>>>>> sends kids to the district, why would you want your kid's school to
    >>>>>>>> hire
    >>>>>>>>> teachers fired with cause from another school in the district?
    >>>>>>>>>
    >>>>>>>>>> I wish the union AT LEAST made "sure all the paperwork and
    >>>>>>>>> observations are done
    >>>>>>>>>> correctly" which was not the case.
    >>>>>>>>>
    >>>>>>>>> Did you ask them to?
    >>>>>>>>>
    >>>>>>>>>> I sincerely hope that misconducts of such nature are
    >>>>>>>>>> less prevalent outside NYC.
    >>>>>>>>>
    >>>>>>>>> They are not. First year (second, third, etc.) teachers get fired
    >>>>>>>> until
    >>>>>>>>> they have tenure. I don't know how long that takes in NYC.
    >>>>>>>>>
    >>>>>>>>> I don't know your contract or anything about teaching in NY. However,
    >>>>>>>>> in IL and in my district, you can have good observations and not be
    >>>>>>>>> rehired. You don't need a reason at all. Now, being terminated with a
    >>>>>>>>> bar to rehire would take more documentation (though a non-rehire
    >>>>>>>>> probably isn't getting back into my district even without an official
    >>>>>>>>> termination, but we're relatively small).
    >>>>>>>>>

     
     

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