On 6/17/09, Leticia wrote:
> On 6/14/09, Tom wrote:
>>> On 6/14/09, Tom wrote:
>>
>
>> What I was speaking to directly was that sort of
>> negative energy relished by the fashion mag OP and a
>> few of her first responders - 'I took away the
>> student's magazines and used them for mulch, and then
>> her mom came in and MAJORLY SHAMED AND PUNISHED HER.
>> Bravo! Hurray! Yes, that's the kind of parent support
>> we want!' That sort of thing is what I was talking
>> about.
>>
> If you read the whole post in the begining I would take
> the mags away for the remainder of the class and then
> give them back but this kept on occuring, since the
> mother bringing in the daughters' magazines I have not
> had this problem
>
>
>>>> When referring to taking inappropriate items from
>>>> students, you write: "Sometimes we are like
>>>> their parents - do you ask your child to take out
>>>> the garbage three times before you take their
>>>> allowance week after week? No, not if you are
>>>> raising a responsible human being."
>>>>
>>>> I reply: I assume you want the child to take out
>>>> the garbage themselves, right? I do, too. I want
>>>> kids to be responsible and self- disciplined. But
>>>> in the classroom interactions we're discussing,
>>>> that means I want the kid to put the magazine
>>>> away, AND I want them to do so responsibly and
>>>> with self-discipline. I want them to want to put
>>>> it away, for all the right reasons. Not because
>>>> they're scared of me or my punishments, or
>>>> craving my rewards. That's why I treat kids the
>>>> way I do, for exactly the reasons you say you do.
>>>
>>> Not all children respond to the intrinsic like we
>>> would like. Some children must have help. It would
>>> be a perfect world if everyone did what they
>>> should, but that is not reality.
>>
>> Exactly, but all students can learn, grow, and
>> develop those skills (unless we're talking major
>> sociopaths). That's why I give them two opportunities
>> to take responsibility, then help them out with my
>> own extrinsic directives.
>>
>>>> HOWEVER, I suggest that your behavior in the
>>>> classroom actually contradicts your stated goal.
>>>> Going back to your 'taking out the garbage'
>>>> analogy, do you want the kid to take the garbage
>>>> out, or do you suggest the parent do it for them?
>>>> Obviously, you want the kid to do it. AND YET,
>>>> taking items away from the kids is just like
>>>> taking out the garbage for them! THEY haven't
>>>> learned self-disipline or responsibility at all,
>>>> because THEY didn't put the item away. YOU DID IT
>>>> FOR THEM.
>>>
>>> WOW, psychobabble.....I would like to ask my
>>> students to comply upon request without begging
>>> them to do what they should. I hold those same
>>> standards to my own three children. Raising them to
>>> be responsible means I don't have to do it for
>>> them. They comply because they respect my wishes,
>>> not because of a threat. But because they are not
>>> perfect (me either!), sometimes they must be
>>> reminded of consequences. That is not mean, nor
>>> degrading to them. Just a fact of life.
>>
>> "WOW, psychobabble." Really? It looks like
>> we're agreeing yet again: "Raising them to be
>> responsible means I don't have to do it for them.
>> They comply because they respect my wishes..."
>> Exactly. Mutual respect is what it's all about in my
>> book. But in the fashion mag post, there was anything
>> but mutual respect. And why? Well, who knows, but I
>> respectfully suggest that the teacher does not lead
>> from a place of mutual respect. If you don't lead
>> from there, you can't expect kids to respect you.
>> Power, control, anger, shaming, sarcasm, punishing...
>> all those elements of the real world are under your
>> control as a teacher, and if you lead with them, you
>> are NOT going to create the ideal classroom of
>> responsibility and mutual respect. That's all I'm
>> saying. Do you disagree?
>>
>>>> You talk about having rules and consequences,
>>>> just like in the real world. I have rules and
>>>> consequences in my classes as well - just like
>>>> the real world. My rule is "Support yourself
>>>> and others." My consequences are structured
>>>> and consistent, with the first two giving them an
>>>> opportunity to take responsibility - but with me
>>>> stepping in with kindness and firmness to insure
>>>> an optimum learning environment if they aren't up
>>>> to it today. [Again, have you read my TOME?]
>>>
>>> Yes, I have read your TOME and disagree with it.
>>> More than that, I do not like the holier-than-thou
>>> tone in which it is delivered, which probably is
>>> the reason why I don't like it. Sorry, but my
>>> opinion.
>>
>> Hmmm. I'll have to take a look at that. I do believe
>> that the dignity-based approach is one which works
>> better than the traditional and punitive approach,
>> but I don't believe I'm any better than anyone else
>> because of my beliefs.
>>
>>>> And I don't punish, because punishments only
>>>> cause resentments and apathy in the real world.
>>>> But I'm all about consequences and interventions,
>>>> and creating an overall atmosphere of mutual
>>>> respect, kindness, dignity, and firmness -
>>>> because I know that this leads to kids taking the
>>>> most responsibility, and being the most
>>>> respectful and self-disciplined.
>>>
>>> I don't believe the word punish ever came up in my
>>> response! I used the words consequences, which can
>>> be good or bad. There is always more than one way
>>> to answer all of these questions. Your way or my
>>> way may not work for everyone, so guess what? Each
>>> teacher has to do what works for them, without
>>> being criticized for what they believe in.
>>
>> Where am I criticizing? These forums allow us to
>> openly dialogue, reflecting on the thoughts and
>> stated behaviors of fellow educators. As we give
>> feedback, I think it's important to do so with
>> directness and respect, always addressing the
>> behavior but never the teacher. I try to do this. But
>> please let me know where and how I'm falling down
>> here.
>>
>> But if you're suggesting that teachers can just post
>> their thoughts here and expect only a plethora of
>> praise and congratulations, I think you're off the
>> mark vis a vis the purpose of these forums.
>>
>> All my best,
>>
>> Tom

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