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Re: Online applications
Posted by Merrill on 6/17/08

Thanks for the advice--I do appreciate it. I'm not trying to sound
bit*** or bitter, I'm just a bit amazed at how difficult this is.

Put this in perspective--I recently was offered two tenure-track
positions at universities in rural areas. The schools were excited, but
I wasn't, because my wife would not be able to find work in a town of
500 people. But it is interesting that I am qualified to teach at a
university, but for some reason high schools don't want me. Why? Not
sure, but I suspect that the bureaucracy keeps highly qualified teachers
out of the classroom. If I go into a suburban Illinois school, am I
going to find English teachers that are Ph.D.s or ABD, have several
publications and presentations to their name, and have expert-level
technical skills? I might find a couple--mostly what I will find are
people who ended up in the classroom because they had "connections" or
knew how to work the "system."

Teaching should not be civil service--it should not be a political
appointment--it should be a profession.

On 6/16/08, spedhead wrote:
> On 6/16/08, Merrill wrote:
>> I am not at all familiar with the online "ASAP" application--of
>> course I didn't know what to expect when filling it out.
>
> Well, you learn by experience. Online ASAP is the company/website
> that administers the online application. It is tailored to the needs
> of the district though and has a number of variations. If you apply
> for many districts in the Chicagoland area, you will find a large
> majority, maybe 95 percent of districts use this application.
>
> I suspect
>> that the application is used to screen candidates based on things
>> like race and gender,
>
> NO, NO, NO, NO. That would be a lawsuit waiting. Its very hard to
> prove gender and/or racial bias lawsuits, but if you are able to
> supena web records, that would be a way to do it. I use the system,
> and there's no way to sort by gender or race. In fact, that info is
> voluntary and there's a disclaimer on there about it not being used.
> There is no way to sort by this. That's not to say some hiring
> managers don't think about it, but there's no way to do it online.
>
>> the school they went to,
>
> Really, we can only sort by only the type of degree(s) they have.
> Applicants type in the college's name, but we can't easily sort
> through schools.
>
>> how many years
>> teaching experience, etc. So you better have 10 years experience,
>
> Not if you want to get hired in my district. OUtside of the high need
> jobs like sped or billingual, we seldom hire a teacher with that much
> experience. I call and do 1st interviews for the sped dept. I have
> to be darned impressed with someone with an MA and 10 years to send
> them to the next stage because they're going to cost 20 grand more
> than someone with a BA and 0 years. Like I said in a previous post,
> an MA and 0 is OK, because that's only a few grand more, but 10 years
> and an MA is going to price them out of the market unless they're rare
> like Chinese Bilingual Sped with HQ math and I have a need for that.
> Anyone else with 10 years plus would have to understand they're only
> getting 2 or 3 years out of my boss and I would only send them on with
> that agreement.
>
>> have a degree from Yale, and you better not be a white male.
>
> Actually anyone from Yale would probably get an interview. I don't
> know anyone Ivy League in my district. They'd get an interview, white
> male or not, and the job would be theirs to loose.
>
>> *Or, if you are the daughter of the football coach, they will
>> interview you without ever having to go through the database.
>
> She'd have to go through the database, but she'd have a leg up, no
> doubt about it.
>>
>> This of course leads to the question of why education programs are
>> churning out teachers who will never find jobs?
>
> They want your tuition check. Not too hard to figure out.
>
>> If schools in
>> Illinois are getting 800 resumes per position, it means that the
>> market is completely flooded
>
> The regular elem ed, English, social studies, and PE fields are
> completely flooded. Not sure about fine arts and vocational jobs. I
> know Billingual Spanish and some Asian languages, and SOME Chicagoland
> areas have need of Polish and other East Europe languages and/or
> ESL-ELL (ELL is an English speaking teacher, with a variety of
> languages in the room, teaching in English), Sped, and Math are pretty
> heavily recruited. Sped I can guarantee you is shortage and I know the
> Math department head can't find enough interviewees to HAVE a decision
> to make. He has to take the ONE applicant that comes in. Science
> I've heard a mixed bag about. AT middle school, there's no shortage
> for general science, but I think High School has a shortage of Physics
> and Chem. Bio is not really a shortage field, but its not History either.
>
> --where is the "teacher shortage" we
>> keep hearing about?
>
> North Carolina. Texas. Las Vegas. Other places. Never in Illinois,
> not accross the board, anyways.
>
>> The rational person is going to find a hard time justifying going
>> into a profession that has this many headaches associated with it.
>
> Yes. By all means. Do NOT go into the glutted fields I mentioned
> above. Only headache and heartache are going to come of it. If you
> think you could be a good one, go into one of the shortage fields
> mentioned above and you'll find a job. Its not that hard to figure out!
>
>> Highly qualified people are going to go into the business world
>> instead (they are).
>
> Well, good. There are no jobs for them in education. There are
> plenty enough highly qualified people to choose from as it is.
>
> So many people read one article in Time about a "teacher shortage" and
> assumed that meant everywhere and every kind of teacher. They
> probably didn't even finish the article, they just read the cover.
> So, off they go to be a 3rd Grade teacher or a High School History
> teacher. Trouble is, there are WAY too many History and Elem ed
> teachers in Illinois, and many other places too. There are fields
> that have need.
>
> In computer programing, a field that is generally thought to be well
> paying and high-need, I'm told that there is a language that is almost
> never used and there are no jobs in it anymore. You can still major
> in it in college. There are several other languages that ARE high
> need. Therefore, someone would be foolish to pursue the obsolete
> language and find themselves unemployable, when they could have
> pursued a similar program that had demand in the field.
>
> Likewise, there are teaching fields that, while not obsolete, are
> beyond glutted. There are similar fields, however, that offer
> identical pay and similar work experience that could net one a job in
> Illinois. The thing is, people don't want to pursue the in-demand
> fields, because they're not part of their "dream" of teaching 3rd
> graders or HS History. Sometimes you have to wake up from the dream
> and try to get a job...
>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> On 6/15/08, spedhead wrote:
>>> On 6/15/08, Merrill wrote:
>>>> I just filled out one for a district in Illinois--it was an
>>>> absolute nightmare. Took close to 6 hours to complete. They
>>>> wanted every piece of information imaginable, put me through a
>>>> "teaching style" personality test that was timed, and they
>>>> wanted me to upload letters of recommendation--as if I have
>>>> those--they usually come from the person making the recommendation!
>>>
>>> No, in Illinois they don't. You have to understand every area has
>>> different ways of doing things. I have filled out out-of-state
>>> recommendation forms that came from a district and they expected
>>> me to put them in the mail direct to them. This is almost never
>>> done in Illinois. We write letters of rec and give them to the
>>> candidate. They then give them, or a copy of them, to the
>>> district they're applying to. PDFs uploded on the online
>>> application are quickly becoming the prefered way to get this
>>> info, along with college transcripts and certification documents.
>>>
>>>> There was no place to indicate that I am close to finishing my
>>>> Ph.D. There was also no way to indicate that I had been in the
>>>> private sector for a few years between teaching gigs.
>>>
>>> Most Chicagoland districts use the Online ASAP application. After
>>> you've done one, you can import a lot of the info to another
>>> application. There is room to put all experience in the work
>>> force, teaching and private sector. There's also room to put all
>>> school attended and the credit you have there. If you've done
>>> something other than this application, it is not the norm.
>>>
>>> To be honest, I don't care if you've been in the private sector.
>>> We usually consider teaching experience when making a call on
>>> whether to interview. Non-teaching experience has to be something
>>> special to even raise an eyebrow, like military experience in Iraq
>>> or aide to a Senator or something like that (I've seen both of
>>> those examples, BTW).
>>>
>>>> So it is safe to say that an online application hurts most
>>>> applicants in a big way. It's just laziness on the part of the
>>>> district--why not hire someone to look at our resumes and cover
>>>> letters?
>>>
>>> Ummmm, because that costs money. School districts have many
>>> things to do with their finite resources and being fair to job
>>> applicants doesn't even make the list. If public schools in your
>>> state have money to spare, I'd suggest staying there.
>>>
>>> I'll say this. Teachers in fields that are glutted, like elem ed,
>>> English, Social Studies, PE, etc. do not get their applications
>>> looked at "fairly." I know this for certain because collegues of
>>> mine hire for those positions. There are many hundreds of
>>> applications for each job. We don't have the time to look through
>>> them and we don't want to. This is why we have the online system
>>> to sort through the people we don't even want to consider. Is it
>>> perfect? Nope, but its the system we have and its the system
>>> you'll have to live with if you want to work here. I'd say 3rd
>>> Grade teachers are a Dime a dozen, but they're more common than that.
>>>
>>> Now, I look at special education applicants and we have far fewer
>>> than say, the English Dept. I have the time to look through each
>>> application, because there might only be 8 apps for 3 jobs.
>>> Towards the end of the summer, when fluke openings spring up,
>>> there might not even be one app for a job.
>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On 6/15/08, Don't worry wrote:
>>>>> Most applications have a question such as "How do your past
>>>> professional and
>>>>> personal experience make you an excellent candidate for this
>>>> position?" Surely you
>>>>> can fit it in there, and you can send cover letters to the
>>>> principals as well.
>>>>>
>>>>> On 6/15/08, Merrill wrote:
>>>>>> Many districts and schools require online
>>>>>> applications--basically a database entry for the applicant.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> In my case, I have a CV that is much more comprehensive
>>>>>> than this--it has publications, service work, private
>>>>>> sector stuff, etc.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I am worried that the online system is going to make me
>>>>>> (and everyone else) look the same. I won't be able to
>>>>>> explain why I was teaching in the mid 1990s and then took
>>>>>> time off and returned to graduate school/teaching (I was in
>>>>>> the private sector working). In other words, the database
>>>>>> is like a shoe-horn.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I am pretty worried about this--should I be?
>>>>>

Posts on this thread, including this one

• Online applications, 6/15/08, by Merrill.
• Re: Online applications, 6/15/08, by Don't worry.
• Re: Online applications, 6/15/08, by Merrill.
• Re: Online applications, 6/15/08, by mrsd.
• Re: Online applications, 6/15/08, by spedhead.
• Re: Online applications, 6/16/08, by Merrill.
• Re: Online applications, 6/16/08, by KKL/2nd/IL.
• Re: Online applications, 6/16/08, by Merrill.
• Re: Online applications, 6/16/08, by KKL/2nd/IL.
• Re: Online applications, 6/16/08, by spedhead.
• Re: Online applications, 6/17/08, by Merrill.
• Re: Online applications, 6/17/08, by Rebecca.
• Re: Online applications, 6/17/08, by spedhead.
• Re: Online applications, 6/17/08, by Merrill.
• Re: Online applications, 6/17/08, by spedhead.
• Re: Online applications, 6/17/08, by Merrill.
• Re: Online applications, 6/17/08, by spedhead.
• Re: Online applications, 6/18/08, by Merrill.
• Re: Online applications, 6/18/08, by spedhead.
• Re: Online applications, 6/18/08, by Without Words Thanks to Sped Head!.
• Re: Online applications, 6/19/08, by discouraged.
• Re: Online applications, 6/19/08, by spedhead.
• Re: Online applications, 6/20/08, by Merrill.
• Re: Online applications, 6/20/08, by spedhead.