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Re: Online applications
Posted by Merrill on 6/17/08

Well I think the problem is this...

Schools won't take someone with a BA because they don't have enough
experience. They also won't take someone with a graduate degree, because
they cost too much money. So they want "some" experience, but not too much.
Some education, but not too much. They want people with a lot of content
knowledge--but not too much.

Sounds like Goldilocks syndrome here.

I suggest you go check out the writings of E.D. Hirsch, who contends that
children need to be taught "knowledge" not "mental skills." Our teachers
know all about the procedures they need to follow in the classroom, and the
forms that need to be filled out, but they can't teach writing because they
have no exposure to research, modern composition theory, rhetorical theory,
history of pedagogy, etc. Some barely know how to write themselves (I teach
teachers at a university, so believe me, I know).

You can't have it both ways. You either hire experts who can teach, or you
try to do things "on the cheap" and hire paper-pushers. If schools hired
people who could teach, we wouldn't have a lousy education system with
dismal results.

But part of what you say is correct--"content" people do tend to get
frustrated. When students go through 5 years of education with no
expectations and no accountability, they don't respond well to a teacher who
suddenly wants them to know something.


On 6/17/08, spedhead wrote:
> On 6/17/08, Merrill wrote:
>> Put this in perspective--I recently was offered two tenure-track
>> positions at universities in rural areas. The schools were excited, but
>> I wasn't, because my wife would not be able to find work in a town of
>> 500 people.
>
> I'm hardly an expert on this, but university teaching jobs, I've heard,
> are almost universally hard to get. Every geographic area, and every
> field. There are many, many PhDs who never get an offer at a Community
> College, much less what you've had offered. You had to make your own
> decision, but if you get a similar offer again, you might want to take it
> and have your wife drive or live in between the University and wherever
> she finds work. A job like that is worth accomodation, in my opinion.
>
> But it is interesting that I am qualified to teach at a
>> university, but for some reason high schools don't want me. Why? Not
>> sure, but I suspect that the bureaucracy keeps highly qualified teachers
>> out of the classroom.
>
> Well, most've us have heard the whole "50 Percent of teachers quit within
> 5 years" fact. In my experience, most of those people are content
> focused. They LOVE history, math, science, English, whatever. They could
> take or leave the kids. The teachers who are usually sucessful are the
> ones who LOVE teaching kids, and can take or leave the content. Yeah,
> they need to know the content, I'm not saying they don't, but they focus
> most on educating the students.
>
> Those content focused people get dissatisfied with not being able to teach
> at the high level they want. You're a PhD in Enlgish, so you really want
> to analyze the nuances of Hamlet and college-prep Juniors keep asking
> whose son Hamlet was. That might get frustrating for you, it does for
> many content experts.
>
> If I go into a suburban Illinois school, am I
>> going to find English teachers that are Ph.D.s or ABD, have several
>> publications and presentations to their name, and have expert-level
>> technical skills?
>
> But we don't need that in a "suburban Illinois school." There's a reason
> that one can be a teacher with a BACHELOR'S degree worth of knowledge in
> the content level. We're not looking for PhDs. We want someone who can
> teach, which is a science in its own right. Nearly all teachers obtain
> Masters degrees, and the vast majority of them are in EDUCATION, not
> content area. At the end of the day, we don't need graduate level content
> knowledge, we need graduate level teaching skills. Most educators who put
> Dr. in front of their name get Educational doctorates in some field of
> Education, not a content area. Quite frankly, you're bringing the wrong
> set of "expert-level" skills. We need expert teachers, not expert English
> scholars.
>
>> Teaching should not be civil service--it should not be a political
>> appointment--it should be a profession.
>
> It actually kind of is civil service in Illinois from one point of view.
> Our retirement system is governed under civil service laws. We work in
> PUBLIC schools which are local governmental agencies. We don't pay Social
> Security, like City and State employees, because its considered local
> government. We are responsible to elected officials and are paid out of
> public funds. We are public employees. One can be a professional public
> employee. Public service is not all about clearning sewers and writing
> parking tickets.
>
> For those who have issue with that, there is always PRIVATE school.
>
> In any event, good luck!
>
>>
>> On 6/16/08, spedhead wrote:
>>> On 6/16/08, Merrill wrote:
>>>> I am not at all familiar with the online "ASAP" application--of
>>>> course I didn't know what to expect when filling it out.
>>>
>>> Well, you learn by experience. Online ASAP is the company/website
>>> that administers the online application. It is tailored to the needs
>>> of the district though and has a number of variations. If you apply
>>> for many districts in the Chicagoland area, you will find a large
>>> majority, maybe 95 percent of districts use this application.
>>>
>>> I suspect
>>>> that the application is used to screen candidates based on things
>>>> like race and gender,
>>>
>>> NO, NO, NO, NO. That would be a lawsuit waiting. Its very hard to
>>> prove gender and/or racial bias lawsuits, but if you are able to
>>> supena web records, that would be a way to do it. I use the system,
>>> and there's no way to sort by gender or race. In fact, that info is
>>> voluntary and there's a disclaimer on there about it not being used.
>>> There is no way to sort by this. That's not to say some hiring
>>> managers don't think about it, but there's no way to do it online.
>>>
>>>> the school they went to,
>>>
>>> Really, we can only sort by only the type of degree(s) they have.
>>> Applicants type in the college's name, but we can't easily sort
>>> through schools.
>>>
>>>> how many years
>>>> teaching experience, etc. So you better have 10 years experience,
>>>
>>> Not if you want to get hired in my district. OUtside of the high need
>>> jobs like sped or billingual, we seldom hire a teacher with that much
>>> experience. I call and do 1st interviews for the sped dept. I have
>>> to be darned impressed with someone with an MA and 10 years to send
>>> them to the next stage because they're going to cost 20 grand more
>>> than someone with a BA and 0 years. Like I said in a previous post,
>>> an MA and 0 is OK, because that's only a few grand more, but 10 years
>>> and an MA is going to price them out of the market unless they're rare
>>> like Chinese Bilingual Sped with HQ math and I have a need for that.
>>> Anyone else with 10 years plus would have to understand they're only
>>> getting 2 or 3 years out of my boss and I would only send them on with
>>> that agreement.
>>>
>>>> have a degree from Yale, and you better not be a white male.
>>>
>>> Actually anyone from Yale would probably get an interview. I don't
>>> know anyone Ivy League in my district. They'd get an interview, white
>>> male or not, and the job would be theirs to loose.
>>>
>>>> *Or, if you are the daughter of the football coach, they will
>>>> interview you without ever having to go through the database.
>>>
>>> She'd have to go through the database, but she'd have a leg up, no
>>> doubt about it.
>>>>
>>>> This of course leads to the question of why education programs are
>>>> churning out teachers who will never find jobs?
>>>
>>> They want your tuition check. Not too hard to figure out.
>>>
>>>> If schools in
>>>> Illinois are getting 800 resumes per position, it means that the
>>>> market is completely flooded
>>>
>>> The regular elem ed, English, social studies, and PE fields are
>>> completely flooded. Not sure about fine arts and vocational jobs. I
>>> know Billingual Spanish and some Asian languages, and SOME Chicagoland
>>> areas have need of Polish and other East Europe languages and/or
>>> ESL-ELL (ELL is an English speaking teacher, with a variety of
>>> languages in the room, teaching in English), Sped, and Math are pretty
>>> heavily recruited. Sped I can guarantee you is shortage and I know the
>>> Math department head can't find enough interviewees to HAVE a decision
>>> to make. He has to take the ONE applicant that comes in. Science
>>> I've heard a mixed bag about. AT middle school, there's no shortage
>>> for general science, but I think High School has a shortage of Physics
>>> and Chem. Bio is not really a shortage field, but its not History either.
>>>
>>> --where is the "teacher shortage" we
>>>> keep hearing about?
>>>
>>> North Carolina. Texas. Las Vegas. Other places. Never in Illinois,
>>> not accross the board, anyways.
>>>
>>>> The rational person is going to find a hard time justifying going
>>>> into a profession that has this many headaches associated with it.
>>>
>>> Yes. By all means. Do NOT go into the glutted fields I mentioned
>>> above. Only headache and heartache are going to come of it. If you
>>> think you could be a good one, go into one of the shortage fields
>>> mentioned above and you'll find a job. Its not that hard to figure out!
>>>
>>>> Highly qualified people are going to go into the business world
>>>> instead (they are).
>>>
>>> Well, good. There are no jobs for them in education. There are
>>> plenty enough highly qualified people to choose from as it is.
>>>
>>> So many people read one article in Time about a "teacher shortage" and
>>> assumed that meant everywhere and every kind of teacher. They
>>> probably didn't even finish the article, they just read the cover.
>>> So, off they go to be a 3rd Grade teacher or a High School History
>>> teacher. Trouble is, there are WAY too many History and Elem ed
>>> teachers in Illinois, and many other places too. There are fields
>>> that have need.
>>>
>>> In computer programing, a field that is generally thought to be well
>>> paying and high-need, I'm told that there is a language that is almost
>>> never used and there are no jobs in it anymore. You can still major
>>> in it in college. There are several other languages that ARE high
>>> need. Therefore, someone would be foolish to pursue the obsolete
>>> language and find themselves unemployable, when they could have
>>> pursued a similar program that had demand in the field.
>>>
>>> Likewise, there are teaching fields that, while not obsolete, are
>>> beyond glutted. There are similar fields, however, that offer
>>> identical pay and similar work experience that could net one a job in
>>> Illinois. The thing is, people don't want to pursue the in-demand
>>> fields, because they're not part of their "dream" of teaching 3rd
>>> graders or HS History. Sometimes you have to wake up from the dream
>>> and try to get a job...
>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On 6/15/08, spedhead wrote:
>>>>> On 6/15/08, Merrill wrote:
>>>>>> I just filled out one for a district in Illinois--it was an
>>>>>> absolute nightmare. Took close to 6 hours to complete. They
>>>>>> wanted every piece of information imaginable, put me through a
>>>>>> "teaching style" personality test that was timed, and they
>>>>>> wanted me to upload letters of recommendation--as if I have
>>>>>> those--they usually come from the person making the recommendation!
>>>>>
>>>>> No, in Illinois they don't. You have to understand every area has
>>>>> different ways of doing things. I have filled out out-of-state
>>>>> recommendation forms that came from a district and they expected
>>>>> me to put them in the mail direct to them. This is almost never
>>>>> done in Illinois. We write letters of rec and give them to the
>>>>> candidate. They then give them, or a copy of them, to the
>>>>> district they're applying to. PDFs uploded on the online
>>>>> application are quickly becoming the prefered way to get this
>>>>> info, along with college transcripts and certification documents.
>>>>>
>>>>>> There was no place to indicate that I am close to finishing my
>>>>>> Ph.D. There was also no way to indicate that I had been in the
>>>>>> private sector for a few years between teaching gigs.
>>>>>
>>>>> Most Chicagoland districts use the Online ASAP application. After
>>>>> you've done one, you can import a lot of the info to another
>>>>> application. There is room to put all experience in the work
>>>>> force, teaching and private sector. There's also room to put all
>>>>> school attended and the credit you have there. If you've done
>>>>> something other than this application, it is not the norm.
>>>>>
>>>>> To be honest, I don't care if you've been in the private sector.
>>>>> We usually consider teaching experience when making a call on
>>>>> whether to interview. Non-teaching experience has to be something
>>>>> special to even raise an eyebrow, like military experience in Iraq
>>>>> or aide to a Senator or something like that (I've seen both of
>>>>> those examples, BTW).
>>>>>
>>>>>> So it is safe to say that an online application hurts most
>>>>>> applicants in a big way. It's just laziness on the part of the
>>>>>> district--why not hire someone to look at our resumes and cover
>>>>>> letters?
>>>>>
>>>>> Ummmm, because that costs money. School districts have many
>>>>> things to do with their finite resources and being fair to job
>>>>> applicants doesn't even make the list. If public schools in your
>>>>> state have money to spare, I'd suggest staying there.
>>>>>
>>>>> I'll say this. Teachers in fields that are glutted, like elem ed,
>>>>> English, Social Studies, PE, etc. do not get their applications
>>>>> looked at "fairly." I know this for certain because collegues of
>>>>> mine hire for those positions. There are many hundreds of
>>>>> applications for each job. We don't have the time to look through
>>>>> them and we don't want to. This is why we have the online system
>>>>> to sort through the people we don't even want to consider. Is it
>>>>> perfect? Nope, but its the system we have and its the system
>>>>> you'll have to live with if you want to work here. I'd say 3rd
>>>>> Grade teachers are a Dime a dozen, but they're more common than that.
>>>>>
>>>>> Now, I look at special education applicants and we have far fewer
>>>>> than say, the English Dept. I have the time to look through each
>>>>> application, because there might only be 8 apps for 3 jobs.
>>>>> Towards the end of the summer, when fluke openings spring up,
>>>>> there might not even be one app for a job.
>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On 6/15/08, Don't worry wrote:
>>>>>>> Most applications have a question such as "How do your past
>>>>>> professional and
>>>>>>> personal experience make you an excellent candidate for this
>>>>>> position?" Surely you
>>>>>>> can fit it in there, and you can send cover letters to the
>>>>>> principals as well.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On 6/15/08, Merrill wrote:
>>>>>>>> Many districts and schools require online
>>>>>>>> applications--basically a database entry for the applicant.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> In my case, I have a CV that is much more comprehensive
>>>>>>>> than this--it has publications, service work, private
>>>>>>>> sector stuff, etc.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> I am worried that the online system is going to make me
>>>>>>>> (and everyone else) look the same. I won't be able to
>>>>>>>> explain why I was teaching in the mid 1990s and then took
>>>>>>>> time off and returned to graduate school/teaching (I was in
>>>>>>>> the private sector working). In other words, the database
>>>>>>>> is like a shoe-horn.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> I am pretty worried about this--should I be?
>>>>>>>

Posts on this thread, including this one

• Online applications, 6/15/08, by Merrill.
• Re: Online applications, 6/15/08, by Don't worry.
• Re: Online applications, 6/15/08, by Merrill.
• Re: Online applications, 6/15/08, by mrsd.
• Re: Online applications, 6/15/08, by spedhead.
• Re: Online applications, 6/16/08, by Merrill.
• Re: Online applications, 6/16/08, by KKL/2nd/IL.
• Re: Online applications, 6/16/08, by Merrill.
• Re: Online applications, 6/16/08, by KKL/2nd/IL.
• Re: Online applications, 6/16/08, by spedhead.
• Re: Online applications, 6/17/08, by Merrill.
• Re: Online applications, 6/17/08, by Rebecca.
• Re: Online applications, 6/17/08, by spedhead.
• Re: Online applications, 6/17/08, by Merrill.
• Re: Online applications, 6/17/08, by spedhead.
• Re: Online applications, 6/17/08, by Merrill.
• Re: Online applications, 6/17/08, by spedhead.
• Re: Online applications, 6/18/08, by Merrill.
• Re: Online applications, 6/18/08, by spedhead.
• Re: Online applications, 6/18/08, by Without Words Thanks to Sped Head!.
• Re: Online applications, 6/19/08, by discouraged.
• Re: Online applications, 6/19/08, by spedhead.
• Re: Online applications, 6/20/08, by Merrill.
• Re: Online applications, 6/20/08, by spedhead.