Re: The Education System is FAILING
    Posted by: Hunter on 7/10/14
    () Comments

    You know what's ironic? The fact that
    the United States, for the past 15
    years, has performed average or below
    average on a worldwide educational
    rank.

    The United States, is below average in
    mathematics, average in reading, and
    average in science. This has been the
    case for 15 years, despite the fact
    that the U.S. pays the most money per
    child in education.

    Who is number one? Finland,
    cosistiently. What do they value?
    Creative, personalized, and individual
    learning. They have taken away all
    standardizations, all tests, and all
    government regulation. Teachers are no
    longer evaluated by test scores.

    So tests are scientifically proven to
    be an appropriate measure of a
    students performance? A brief look at
    this data and common sense clearly
    seems to disagree with that.

    The best way to implement education is
    NOT through the process of an assembly
    line, where all students are expected
    to perform the exact same things,
    clearly. Students are human, they're
    not robots that can just be TRAINED
    like some sort of pet.

    On 7/09/14, PsyGuy wrote:
    > I would, but im not the blindly
    patriotic or nationalistic type.
    >
    > We dont lead the world in
    conservation,were not even in the top
    10
    > (Iceland is number 1), many
    countries such as Japan do a far
    better
    > job than we do (where all households
    are required to sort trash on
    > its recyclability).
    >
    > Nor in philanthropy, we came in
    thirteenth, with the UK and
    > Mynamar holding the number 1 and 2
    spots.
    >
    > Were not even top in innovation,
    aside from the generally held
    > consensus that our patent system is
    incredibly broken, both South
    > Korea and Sweden beat the USA (which
    was number 3).
    >
    > Freedom, nope not number 1 were not
    even in the top 10 anymore
    > (were around number 12), Hong Kong
    for the 20th straight year
    > ranks as number 1.
    >
    > The King James Bible is the most
    studied document in the world,
    > not the US constitution.
    >
    > Freedom and money sure do go hand in
    hand, those with the money
    > have the most freedom.
    >>
    >> On 7/09/14, PsyGuy wrote:
    >>> Yeah a long stupid tradition
    (hello metric system),
    >>> different
    >> doesnt
    >>> mean better. We brag about
    freedom, but in most of the
    >>> world such as europe, etc they are
    a lot more free than
    >>> we are. No one is flooding our
    borders for "freedom" they
    >>> are doing so for dollars. You
    could argue that its the
    >>> freedom of making dollars, but
    dont fool yourself, love
    >>> makes the world go round, love of
    money.
    >>>
    >>> On 7/09/14, don't sell our kids
    wrote:
    >>>> The United States has a long
    history of not doing what
    >>>> every other country in the world
    is doing. We do
    >>>> freedom. Centralized education is
    not freedom. Right
    >>>> now, if you don't like something
    your school is doing on
    >>>> behalf of YOUR child, go to your
    local school board and
    >>>> change it. If PsyGuy wins, are
    you going to fly to
    >>>> Washington and get something
    changed with a bunch of
    >>>> educrats in suits? Yeah, right.
    This discussion all
    >>>> rides on whether or not you think
    your child is best
    >>>> served by a conveyor belt,
    factory approach to
    >>>> education. Once our children are
    sold for profits, there
    >>>> is no turning back, and teaching
    can be controlled, and
    >>>> it will be. Teachers will largely
    be replaced with
    >>>> uncertified people...yes, even
    boorish PsyGuy will lose
    >>>> his cushy job because he is just
    a patsy, and after all,
    >>>> profits matter. Read history. My
    argument is proved
    >>>> every day by the people flooding
    our borders to get
    >>>> here, where freedom still exists.
    Freedom is in our
    >>>> local elected school boards, not
    a takeover of schools
    >>>> by the feds so they can be sold
    to rich men in suits.
    >>>>
    >>>>
    >>>> n 7/08/14, PsyGuy wrote:
    >>>>> Yes i can compare mass producing
    iPhones or any
    >>>>> consumer good to the education
    of children, just
    >>>>> because you don't
    >>>> agree
    >>>>> with it doesn't make it flawed.
    Education and
    >>>>> manufacturing
    >>>> are
    >>>>> both system processes. Kids
    arent unique, lots of
    >>>>> educators
    >>>> and
    >>>>> human development professionals
    want to think they are,
    >>>>> but biologically the cognitive
    mechanism of learning is
    >>>> equivalent.
    >>>>> Thats why teaching works as a
    profession. You put 30
    >>>>> kids in a room, present
    instruction, and about 24 of
    >>>>> them are successful in the
    knowledge transfer process.
    >>>>>
    >>>>> Yes its against the law now, but
    laws change, and
    >>>>> theres no reason to create a
    separate government office
    >>>>> or department to manage a
    national curriculum.
    >>>>>
    >>>>> So, what EVERY other country in
    the world is
    >>>>> brainwashing
    >>>> their
    >>>>> youth because they have a
    "national curriculum", sounds
    >>>>> like a conspiracy run by extra
    terrestrials.
    >>>>>
    >>>>> Yes students should be assessed
    based on objective test
    >>>> scores,
    >>>>> thats how EVERY other country in
    the world does it, and
    >>>>> how this country does it for a
    lot of professions, want
    >>>>> to be a teacher, you have to
    take the TeXas PPR and the
    >>>>> content exams, its the same in
    EVERY regulated
    >>>>> profession, why, tests work,
    they are scientifically
    >>>>> and statistically valid measures
    of performance. They
    >>>>> have far higher validity and
    reliability
    >>>> than
    >>>>> some teachers subjective
    measurement.
    >>>>>
    >>>>> On 7/08/14, PsyGuy's argument is
    faulty wrote:
    >>>>>> PsyGuy's argument is flawed.
    You can't compare mass
    >>>>>> producing iPhones on a factory
    line, with the
    >>>>>> education of children, each
    unique. However, his
    >>>>>> argument illustrates the reason
    why it is all crashing
    >>>>>> down. It is against the law in
    the US for the
    >>>>>> Department of Education to
    impose a "curriculum" or
    >>>>>> standards on all the schools.
    That is why there was
    >>>>>> the "Race to the Top" contest,
    so states would grab
    >>>>>> the $$ and the claim could be
    made they were choosing
    >>>>>> this crap. PsyGuy only wants
    the national curr. and
    >>>>>> standards if his political side
    writes their slant
    >>>>>> into them and the students are
    getting brainwashed his
    >>>>>> way. He doesn't want them
    brainwashed by your
    >>>>>> political team. I don't want
    the gov't. in our schools
    >>>>>> at all because politicians
    don't know what the heck we
    >>>>>> do in the classroom. Local
    control and choice is the
    >>>>>> most powerful position, and the
    one where quality can
    >>>>>> be chosen for students. Take
    PsyGuy's stand and make
    >>>>>> Gates and Pearson rich...he
    needs another yacht and
    >>>>>> mansion by evaluating teachers
    based on student test
    >>>>>> scores, don't ya' think?
    >>>>>>
    >>>>>>
    >>>>>> On 7/08/14, PsyGuy wrote:
    >>>>>>> The Department of Education.
    >>>>>>>
    >>>>>>> Thats why their called
    standards, you dont need to
    >>>>>>> "like" them,
    >>>>>> you
    >>>>>>> need to comply with them.
    >>>>>>>
    >>>>>>> Common core sucks, we need a
    national curriculum that
    >>>>>>> works, just because the first
    implementation doesnt
    >>>>>>> work does not mean abandon the
    cause. Every other
    >>>>>>> country in the world has a
    national curriculum and
    >>>>>>> they didnt get it right the
    first time either.
    >>>>>>>
    >>>>>>> Would you want your iPhone
    made without standards,
    >>>>>>> would you want your doctor not
    held to a standard of
    >>>>>>> care and licensing, or would
    you prefer your doctor
    >>>>>>> get to do whatever they want
    because of "freedom" and
    >>>>>>> they dont "like" the standards
    everyone else agrees
    >>>>>>> with is good patient care.
    >>>>>>>
    >>>>>>> On 7/07/14, my 2 wrote:
    >>>>>>>> Let's say you support a
    national set of standards.
    >>>>>>>> Who is the puppeteer? We have
    Common Core, and over
    >>>>>>>> 27 states have legislation to
    get out. Ask yourself,
    >>>>>>>> "Why?" You want kids to have
    the choice of the same
    >>>>>>>> education as everyone else,
    but if you have Common
    >>>>>>>> Standards, you end up with no
    choice,
    >>>>>>> because if
    >>>>>>>> you don't like them, you
    can't move to get away
    >>>>>>>> because they are everywhere.
    We already see people
    >>>>>>>> moving to Texas to get away
    from Common Core. It is
    >>>>>>>> naive to assume that the
    "standards" chosen for
    >>>>>>>> everyone by some political
    person who has never been
    >>>>>>>> in education are going to be
    the pot of gold at the
    >>>>>>>> end of the rainbow. Get real.
    If you are fighting
    >>>>>>>> for poor kids, give them a
    real shot at opportunity.
    >>>>>>>> Freedom is always more
    choice, not less. Think about
    >>>>>>>> it, there always was a
    standard spiral curriculum,
    >>>>>>>> because textbooks were sold
    to more than one state.
    >>>>>>>> If things were not
    standardized at a basic level,
    >>>>>>>> that couldn't have worked,
    but it did. Look, just on
    >>>>>>>> this chat thread, three
    people can't even agree
    >>>>>>>> about the issue of
    personalized learning vs.
    >>>>>>>> standardized. Yet, you want
    someone in Washington to
    >>>>>>>> write standards for all of
    us? The question is why
    >>>>>>>> would you, who pretend to
    care about poor children,
    >>>>>>>> sell your students to the
    money machine of CC and
    >>>>>>>> all the testing...to line the
    pockets Gates,
    >>>>>>>> Walmart, Broad, etc?
    Education is not about profits.
    >>>>>>>> You are fighting on the wrong
    side and at some deep
    >>>>>>>> level you must know
    >>>>> that
    >>>>>>>> selling your students to
    Wally-world schools isn't
    >>>>>>>> going to fix the world for
    them. They will just drop
    >>>>>>>> out, frustrated over the
    testing money machine.
    >>>>>>>>
    >>>>>>>>
    >>>>>>>>
    >>>>>>>> On 7/07/14, PsyGuy wrote:
    >>>>>>>>> Students ned to have
    knowledge and understanding of
    >>>>>>>>> subject material OUTSIDE
    those fields of study they
    >>>>>>>>> find interesting.
    >>>>>>>>>
    >>>>>>>>> The outside world will
    require these young students
    >>>>>>>>> to do various amounts or
    work and tasks that they
    >>>>>>>>> DONT find interesting, life
    is not all about fun.
    >>>>>>>>>
    >>>>>>>>> STANDARDS need to be
    stronger, we are the ONLY
    >>>>> country
    >>>>>>>>> in the world that does not
    have a NATIONAL
    >>>>>>>>> curriculum and you dont even
    want a national
    >>>>>>>>> standard, your position is
    basically
    >>>>>>>> to
    >>>>>>>>> support NON ACCOUNTABILITY.
    We tried that we
    > ended
    >>>>> up
    >>>>>>>>> with football players who
    couldnt read, and nice
    >>>>>>>>> girls who were
    >>>>>>>> great
    >>>>>>>>> teachers pets who couldnt do
    arithmetic.
    >>>>>>>>>
    >>>>>>>>> No they are not all capable
    of becoming genesis,
    >>>>>>>>> Intelligence distribution
    has CONSTANTLY been shown
    >>>>> to
    >>>>>>>>> fit a normal curve.
    >>>>>>>>>
    >>>>>>>>> On 7/06/14, To AW wrote:
    >>>>>>>>>> I am pushing the fact that
    the main curriculum of
    >>>>>>>>>> schools should be a model
    that allows for a
    >>>>>>>>>> personalized curriculum.
    Personalization should
    >>>>>>>>>> not be just through
    "electives", it should the
    >>>>>>>>>> core of the curriculum.
    >>>>>>>>>>
    >>>>>>>>>> Anybody, not just kids,
    will put forth an extreme
    >>>>>>>>>> amount of effort to learn
    things that interest
    >>>>>>>>>> them, and appeal to them.
    It needs to be
    >>>>>>>>>> incorporated in every
    student's learning.
    >>>>>>>>>>
    >>>>>>>>>> Students associate learning
    with boring things at
    >>>>>>>>>> school. This only creates
    kids that are
    >>>>>>>>>> disinterested in doing
    anything to learn, or
    >>>>>>>>>> anything to do with school.
    Instead of creating
    >>>>>>>>>> students with this
    attitude, we need to create
    >>>>>>>>>> students who are intrigued
    in learning, and want
    >>>>>>>>>> to be better themselves.
    >>>>>>>>>>
    >>>>>>>>>> Also, the standardization
    needs to abolished. We
    >>>>>>>>>> can not rank kids based on
    a set of values that we
    >>>>>>>>>> think are important. Not
    all kids are going to be
    >>>>>>>>>> successful at those values,
    and the ranking system
    >>>>>>>>>> only tells them that they
    aren't good enough to be
    >>>>>>>>>> anything. They're humans.
    Humans that have
    >>>>>>>>>> different interests,
    different talents, different
    >>>>>>>>>> tastes, and different
    things they are capable of
    >>>>>>>>>> excelling at. Why are we
    not embracing these
    >>>>>>>>>> differences? We don't
    encourage students to do
    >>>>>>>>>> what they're good at, but
    instead we rank them on
    >>>>>>>>>> what they might not be good
    at. Then
    >>>>> that
    >>>>>>>>>> ranking effects their
    future by inhibiting them
    >>>>>>>>>> from a good college, as
    well as psychologically
    >>>>>>>>>> because they feel they
    aren't capable of doing
    >>>>>>>>>> anything great.
    >>>>>>>>>>
    >>>>>>>>>> Students are not born smart
    (maybe some), like the
    >>>>>>>>>> ranking system (GPA/Grades)
    suggests. They are ALL
    >>>>>>>>>> capable of becoming
    geniuses at ANYTHING they
    >>>>> please,
    >>>>>>>>>> but when you tell a student
    his GPA is bad &
    >>>>>>>>>> compare him to someone else
    who is way better,
    >>>>>>>>>> they feel worthless. When
    really, that might not
    >>>>>>>>>> even be what interests him,
    nor where his talent
    >>>>>>>>>> shines!
    >>>>>>>>>>
    >>>>>>>>>>
    >>>>>>>>>> On 7/04/14, AW wrote:
    >>>>>>>>>>> Hunter, I can't justify
    common core as "we" in
    >>>>>>>>>>> Texas don't use it. Psyguy
    is a proponent of
    >>>>>>>>>>> common core
    >>>>> so
    >>>>>>>>>>> he would have to enlighten
    you with CC's program
    >>>>>>>>>>> is so beneficial.
    >>>>>>>>>>>
    >>>>>>>>>>> I was replying to your
    "solutions." Most of your
    >>>>>>>>>>> comments are "general" and
    various comments
    > may
    >>>>> apply
    >>>>>>>>>>> to some schools,
    >>>>>>>>>> but
    >>>>>>>>>>> I would guess that could
    be applied to any state
    >>>>>>>>>>> or country. None of your
    comments apply to my
    >>>>>>>>>>> school.
    >>>>>>>>>>>
    >>>>>>>>>>> So I have to ask....what
    program are you pushing?


    Posts on this thread, including this one

  • The Education System is FAILING, 7/01/14, by Hunter.
  • Re: The Education System is FAILING, 7/01/14, by Hunter.
  • Re: The Education System is FAILING, 7/02/14, by AW -- I think you are a little behind the times.
  • Re: The Education System is FAILING, 7/03/14, by Huner.
  • Re: The Education System is FAILING, 7/04/14, by AW.
  • Re: The Education System is FAILING, 7/04/14, by to Hunter.
  • Re: The Education System is FAILING, 7/04/14, by PsyGuy.
  • Re: The Education System is FAILING, 7/04/14, by to PsyGuy.
  • Re: The Education System is FAILING, 7/04/14, by PsyGuy.
  • Re: The Education System is FAILING, 7/04/14, by answer.
  • Re: The Education System is FAILING, 7/06/14, by muinteoir.
  • Re: The Education System is FAILING, 7/06/14, by To AW.
  • Re: The Education System is FAILING, 7/07/14, by PsyGuy.
  • Re: The Education System is FAILING, 7/07/14, by PsyGuy.
  • Re: The Education System is FAILING, 7/07/14, by my 2 .
  • Re: The Education System is FAILING, 7/07/14, by my 2 .
  • Re: The Education System is FAILING, 7/07/14, by hmmmmmm.
  • Re: The Education System is FAILING, 7/08/14, by PsyGuy.
  • Re: The Education System is FAILING, 7/08/14, by PsyGuy's argument is faulty.
  • Re: The Education System is FAILING, 7/08/14, by PsyGuy.
  • Re: The Education System is FAILING, 7/09/14, by don't sell our kids.
  • Re: The Education System is FAILING, 7/09/14, by PsyGuy.
  • Re: The Education System is FAILING, 7/09/14, by fight back now.
  • Re: The Education System is FAILING, 7/09/14, by PsyGuy.
  • Re: The Education System is FAILING, 7/10/14, by Hunter.
  • Re: The Education System is FAILING, 7/10/14, by to Hunter.
  • Re: The Education System is FAILING, 7/10/14, by whomever.
  • Re: The Education System is FAILING, 7/11/14, by PsyGuy.
  • Re: The Education System is FAILING, 7/11/14, by about Finland.
  • Re: The Education System is FAILING, 7/13/14, by Hunter.