You know what's ironic? The fact that
the United States, for the past 15
years, has performed average or below
average on a worldwide educational
rank.
The United States, is below average in
mathematics, average in reading, and
average in science. This has been the
case for 15 years, despite the fact
that the U.S. pays the most money per
child in education.
Who is number one? Finland,
cosistiently. What do they value?
Creative, personalized, and individual
learning. They have taken away all
standardizations, all tests, and all
government regulation. Teachers are no
longer evaluated by test scores.
So tests are scientifically proven to
be an appropriate measure of a
students performance? A brief look at
this data and common sense clearly
seems to disagree with that.
The best way to implement education is
NOT through the process of an assembly
line, where all students are expected
to perform the exact same things,
clearly. Students are human, they're
not robots that can just be TRAINED
like some sort of pet.
On 7/09/14, PsyGuy wrote:
> I would, but im not the blindly
patriotic or nationalistic type.
>
> We dont lead the world in
conservation,were not even in the top
10
> (Iceland is number 1), many
countries such as Japan do a far
better
> job than we do (where all households
are required to sort trash on
> its recyclability).
>
> Nor in philanthropy, we came in
thirteenth, with the UK and
> Mynamar holding the number 1 and 2
spots.
>
> Were not even top in innovation,
aside from the generally held
> consensus that our patent system is
incredibly broken, both South
> Korea and Sweden beat the USA (which
was number 3).
>
> Freedom, nope not number 1 were not
even in the top 10 anymore
> (were around number 12), Hong Kong
for the 20th straight year
> ranks as number 1.
>
> The King James Bible is the most
studied document in the world,
> not the US constitution.
>
> Freedom and money sure do go hand in
hand, those with the money
> have the most freedom.
>>
>> On 7/09/14, PsyGuy wrote:
>>> Yeah a long stupid tradition
(hello metric system),
>>> different
>> doesnt
>>> mean better. We brag about
freedom, but in most of the
>>> world such as europe, etc they are
a lot more free than
>>> we are. No one is flooding our
borders for "freedom" they
>>> are doing so for dollars. You
could argue that its the
>>> freedom of making dollars, but
dont fool yourself, love
>>> makes the world go round, love of
money.
>>>
>>> On 7/09/14, don't sell our kids
wrote:
>>>> The United States has a long
history of not doing what
>>>> every other country in the world
is doing. We do
>>>> freedom. Centralized education is
not freedom. Right
>>>> now, if you don't like something
your school is doing on
>>>> behalf of YOUR child, go to your
local school board and
>>>> change it. If PsyGuy wins, are
you going to fly to
>>>> Washington and get something
changed with a bunch of
>>>> educrats in suits? Yeah, right.
This discussion all
>>>> rides on whether or not you think
your child is best
>>>> served by a conveyor belt,
factory approach to
>>>> education. Once our children are
sold for profits, there
>>>> is no turning back, and teaching
can be controlled, and
>>>> it will be. Teachers will largely
be replaced with
>>>> uncertified people...yes, even
boorish PsyGuy will lose
>>>> his cushy job because he is just
a patsy, and after all,
>>>> profits matter. Read history. My
argument is proved
>>>> every day by the people flooding
our borders to get
>>>> here, where freedom still exists.
Freedom is in our
>>>> local elected school boards, not
a takeover of schools
>>>> by the feds so they can be sold
to rich men in suits.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> n 7/08/14, PsyGuy wrote:
>>>>> Yes i can compare mass producing
iPhones or any
>>>>> consumer good to the education
of children, just
>>>>> because you don't
>>>> agree
>>>>> with it doesn't make it flawed.
Education and
>>>>> manufacturing
>>>> are
>>>>> both system processes. Kids
arent unique, lots of
>>>>> educators
>>>> and
>>>>> human development professionals
want to think they are,
>>>>> but biologically the cognitive
mechanism of learning is
>>>> equivalent.
>>>>> Thats why teaching works as a
profession. You put 30
>>>>> kids in a room, present
instruction, and about 24 of
>>>>> them are successful in the
knowledge transfer process.
>>>>>
>>>>> Yes its against the law now, but
laws change, and
>>>>> theres no reason to create a
separate government office
>>>>> or department to manage a
national curriculum.
>>>>>
>>>>> So, what EVERY other country in
the world is
>>>>> brainwashing
>>>> their
>>>>> youth because they have a
"national curriculum", sounds
>>>>> like a conspiracy run by extra
terrestrials.
>>>>>
>>>>> Yes students should be assessed
based on objective test
>>>> scores,
>>>>> thats how EVERY other country in
the world does it, and
>>>>> how this country does it for a
lot of professions, want
>>>>> to be a teacher, you have to
take the TeXas PPR and the
>>>>> content exams, its the same in
EVERY regulated
>>>>> profession, why, tests work,
they are scientifically
>>>>> and statistically valid measures
of performance. They
>>>>> have far higher validity and
reliability
>>>> than
>>>>> some teachers subjective
measurement.
>>>>>
>>>>> On 7/08/14, PsyGuy's argument is
faulty wrote:
>>>>>> PsyGuy's argument is flawed.
You can't compare mass
>>>>>> producing iPhones on a factory
line, with the
>>>>>> education of children, each
unique. However, his
>>>>>> argument illustrates the reason
why it is all crashing
>>>>>> down. It is against the law in
the US for the
>>>>>> Department of Education to
impose a "curriculum" or
>>>>>> standards on all the schools.
That is why there was
>>>>>> the "Race to the Top" contest,
so states would grab
>>>>>> the $$ and the claim could be
made they were choosing
>>>>>> this crap. PsyGuy only wants
the national curr. and
>>>>>> standards if his political side
writes their slant
>>>>>> into them and the students are
getting brainwashed his
>>>>>> way. He doesn't want them
brainwashed by your
>>>>>> political team. I don't want
the gov't. in our schools
>>>>>> at all because politicians
don't know what the heck we
>>>>>> do in the classroom. Local
control and choice is the
>>>>>> most powerful position, and the
one where quality can
>>>>>> be chosen for students. Take
PsyGuy's stand and make
>>>>>> Gates and Pearson rich...he
needs another yacht and
>>>>>> mansion by evaluating teachers
based on student test
>>>>>> scores, don't ya' think?
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On 7/08/14, PsyGuy wrote:
>>>>>>> The Department of Education.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Thats why their called
standards, you dont need to
>>>>>>> "like" them,
>>>>>> you
>>>>>>> need to comply with them.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Common core sucks, we need a
national curriculum that
>>>>>>> works, just because the first
implementation doesnt
>>>>>>> work does not mean abandon the
cause. Every other
>>>>>>> country in the world has a
national curriculum and
>>>>>>> they didnt get it right the
first time either.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Would you want your iPhone
made without standards,
>>>>>>> would you want your doctor not
held to a standard of
>>>>>>> care and licensing, or would
you prefer your doctor
>>>>>>> get to do whatever they want
because of "freedom" and
>>>>>>> they dont "like" the standards
everyone else agrees
>>>>>>> with is good patient care.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On 7/07/14, my 2 wrote:
>>>>>>>> Let's say you support a
national set of standards.
>>>>>>>> Who is the puppeteer? We have
Common Core, and over
>>>>>>>> 27 states have legislation to
get out. Ask yourself,
>>>>>>>> "Why?" You want kids to have
the choice of the same
>>>>>>>> education as everyone else,
but if you have Common
>>>>>>>> Standards, you end up with no
choice,
>>>>>>> because if
>>>>>>>> you don't like them, you
can't move to get away
>>>>>>>> because they are everywhere.
We already see people
>>>>>>>> moving to Texas to get away
from Common Core. It is
>>>>>>>> naive to assume that the
"standards" chosen for
>>>>>>>> everyone by some political
person who has never been
>>>>>>>> in education are going to be
the pot of gold at the
>>>>>>>> end of the rainbow. Get real.
If you are fighting
>>>>>>>> for poor kids, give them a
real shot at opportunity.
>>>>>>>> Freedom is always more
choice, not less. Think about
>>>>>>>> it, there always was a
standard spiral curriculum,
>>>>>>>> because textbooks were sold
to more than one state.
>>>>>>>> If things were not
standardized at a basic level,
>>>>>>>> that couldn't have worked,
but it did. Look, just on
>>>>>>>> this chat thread, three
people can't even agree
>>>>>>>> about the issue of
personalized learning vs.
>>>>>>>> standardized. Yet, you want
someone in Washington to
>>>>>>>> write standards for all of
us? The question is why
>>>>>>>> would you, who pretend to
care about poor children,
>>>>>>>> sell your students to the
money machine of CC and
>>>>>>>> all the testing...to line the
pockets Gates,
>>>>>>>> Walmart, Broad, etc?
Education is not about profits.
>>>>>>>> You are fighting on the wrong
side and at some deep
>>>>>>>> level you must know
>>>>> that
>>>>>>>> selling your students to
Wally-world schools isn't
>>>>>>>> going to fix the world for
them. They will just drop
>>>>>>>> out, frustrated over the
testing money machine.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> On 7/07/14, PsyGuy wrote:
>>>>>>>>> Students ned to have
knowledge and understanding of
>>>>>>>>> subject material OUTSIDE
those fields of study they
>>>>>>>>> find interesting.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> The outside world will
require these young students
>>>>>>>>> to do various amounts or
work and tasks that they
>>>>>>>>> DONT find interesting, life
is not all about fun.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> STANDARDS need to be
stronger, we are the ONLY
>>>>> country
>>>>>>>>> in the world that does not
have a NATIONAL
>>>>>>>>> curriculum and you dont even
want a national
>>>>>>>>> standard, your position is
basically
>>>>>>>> to
>>>>>>>>> support NON ACCOUNTABILITY.
We tried that we
> ended
>>>>> up
>>>>>>>>> with football players who
couldnt read, and nice
>>>>>>>>> girls who were
>>>>>>>> great
>>>>>>>>> teachers pets who couldnt do
arithmetic.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> No they are not all capable
of becoming genesis,
>>>>>>>>> Intelligence distribution
has CONSTANTLY been shown
>>>>> to
>>>>>>>>> fit a normal curve.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> On 7/06/14, To AW wrote:
>>>>>>>>>> I am pushing the fact that
the main curriculum of
>>>>>>>>>> schools should be a model
that allows for a
>>>>>>>>>> personalized curriculum.
Personalization should
>>>>>>>>>> not be just through
"electives", it should the
>>>>>>>>>> core of the curriculum.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Anybody, not just kids,
will put forth an extreme
>>>>>>>>>> amount of effort to learn
things that interest
>>>>>>>>>> them, and appeal to them.
It needs to be
>>>>>>>>>> incorporated in every
student's learning.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Students associate learning
with boring things at
>>>>>>>>>> school. This only creates
kids that are
>>>>>>>>>> disinterested in doing
anything to learn, or
>>>>>>>>>> anything to do with school.
Instead of creating
>>>>>>>>>> students with this
attitude, we need to create
>>>>>>>>>> students who are intrigued
in learning, and want
>>>>>>>>>> to be better themselves.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Also, the standardization
needs to abolished. We
>>>>>>>>>> can not rank kids based on
a set of values that we
>>>>>>>>>> think are important. Not
all kids are going to be
>>>>>>>>>> successful at those values,
and the ranking system
>>>>>>>>>> only tells them that they
aren't good enough to be
>>>>>>>>>> anything. They're humans.
Humans that have
>>>>>>>>>> different interests,
different talents, different
>>>>>>>>>> tastes, and different
things they are capable of
>>>>>>>>>> excelling at. Why are we
not embracing these
>>>>>>>>>> differences? We don't
encourage students to do
>>>>>>>>>> what they're good at, but
instead we rank them on
>>>>>>>>>> what they might not be good
at. Then
>>>>> that
>>>>>>>>>> ranking effects their
future by inhibiting them
>>>>>>>>>> from a good college, as
well as psychologically
>>>>>>>>>> because they feel they
aren't capable of doing
>>>>>>>>>> anything great.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Students are not born smart
(maybe some), like the
>>>>>>>>>> ranking system (GPA/Grades)
suggests. They are ALL
>>>>>>>>>> capable of becoming
geniuses at ANYTHING they
>>>>> please,
>>>>>>>>>> but when you tell a student
his GPA is bad &
>>>>>>>>>> compare him to someone else
who is way better,
>>>>>>>>>> they feel worthless. When
really, that might not
>>>>>>>>>> even be what interests him,
nor where his talent
>>>>>>>>>> shines!
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> On 7/04/14, AW wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>> Hunter, I can't justify
common core as "we" in
>>>>>>>>>>> Texas don't use it. Psyguy
is a proponent of
>>>>>>>>>>> common core
>>>>> so
>>>>>>>>>>> he would have to enlighten
you with CC's program
>>>>>>>>>>> is so beneficial.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> I was replying to your
"solutions." Most of your
>>>>>>>>>>> comments are "general" and
various comments
> may
>>>>> apply
>>>>>>>>>>> to some schools,
>>>>>>>>>> but
>>>>>>>>>>> I would guess that could
be applied to any state
>>>>>>>>>>> or country. None of your
comments apply to my
>>>>>>>>>>> school.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> So I have to ask....what
program are you pushing?
Posts on this thread, including this one