Re: The Education System is FAILING
    Posted by: whomever on 7/10/14
    () Comments

    I look at the PISA reports and wonder if we are really
    comparing apples to apples.

    I keep hearing about how great the Finnish schools are. But
    are you aware they only have nine years of compulsory
    education? After that students have a choice, a choice our
    students are lacking. We funnel all of our students into the
    college prep track. Approximately 50 percent of Finnish
    students go to our equivalent of high school and are on the
    "University Track".

    Most of the others go into vocational training. Now I'd argue
    that if we took the bottom 50 percent of students out of "high
    school" our pupils would suddenly be much strong in STEM
    subjects.

    You can see a very nice report at
    www.oph.fi/download/131431_vocational_education_and_tra
    ining_in_finland.pdf

    This comes from the Finnish National Board of Education. Take
    a look and see how we compare.

    On 7/10/14, Hunter wrote:
    > You know what's ironic? The fact that the United States,
    > for the past 15 years, has performed average or below
    > average on a worldwide educational rank.
    >
    > The United States, is below average in mathematics,
    > average in reading, and average in science. This has been
    > the case for 15 years, despite the fact that the U.S. pays
    > the most money per child in education.
    >
    > Who is number one? Finland, cosistiently. What do they
    > value? Creative, personalized, and individual learning.
    > They have taken away all standardizations, all tests, and
    > all government regulation. Teachers are no longer
    > evaluated by test scores.
    >
    > So tests are scientifically proven to be an appropriate
    > measure of a students performance? A brief look at this
    > data and common sense clearly seems to disagree with that.
    >
    > The best way to implement education is NOT through the
    > process of an assembly line, where all students are
    > expected to perform the exact same things, clearly.
    > Students are human, they're not robots that can just be
    > TRAINED like some sort of pet.
    >
    >
    > On 7/09/14, PsyGuy wrote:
    >> I would, but im not the blindly
    > patriotic or nationalistic type.
    >>
    >> We dont lead the world in
    > conservation,were not even in the top 10
    >> (Iceland is number 1), many
    > countries such as Japan do a far better
    >> job than we do (where all households
    > are required to sort trash on
    >> its recyclability).
    >>
    >> Nor in philanthropy, we came in
    > thirteenth, with the UK and
    >> Mynamar holding the number 1 and 2
    > spots.
    >>
    >> Were not even top in innovation,
    > aside from the generally held
    >> consensus that our patent system is
    > incredibly broken, both South
    >> Korea and Sweden beat the USA (which
    > was number 3).
    >>
    >> Freedom, nope not number 1 were not
    > even in the top 10 anymore
    >> (were around number 12), Hong Kong
    > for the 20th straight year
    >> ranks as number 1.
    >>
    >> The King James Bible is the most
    > studied document in the world,
    >> not the US constitution.
    >>
    >> Freedom and money sure do go hand in
    > hand, those with the money
    >> have the most freedom.
    >>>
    >>> On 7/09/14, PsyGuy wrote:
    >>>> Yeah a long stupid tradition
    > (hello metric system),
    >>>> different
    >>> doesnt
    >>>> mean better. We brag about
    > freedom, but in most of the
    >>>> world such as europe, etc they are
    > a lot more free than
    >>>> we are. No one is flooding our
    > borders for "freedom" they
    >>>> are doing so for dollars. You
    > could argue that its the
    >>>> freedom of making dollars, but
    > dont fool yourself, love
    >>>> makes the world go round, love of
    > money.
    >>>>
    >>>> On 7/09/14, don't sell our kids
    > wrote:
    >>>>> The United States has a long
    > history of not doing what
    >>>>> every other country in the world
    > is doing. We do
    >>>>> freedom. Centralized education is
    > not freedom. Right
    >>>>> now, if you don't like something
    > your school is doing on
    >>>>> behalf of YOUR child, go to your
    > local school board and
    >>>>> change it. If PsyGuy wins, are
    > you going to fly to
    >>>>> Washington and get something
    > changed with a bunch of
    >>>>> educrats in suits? Yeah, right.
    > This discussion all
    >>>>> rides on whether or not you think
    > your child is best
    >>>>> served by a conveyor belt,
    > factory approach to
    >>>>> education. Once our children are
    > sold for profits, there
    >>>>> is no turning back, and teaching
    > can be controlled, and
    >>>>> it will be. Teachers will largely
    > be replaced with
    >>>>> uncertified people...yes, even
    > boorish PsyGuy will lose
    >>>>> his cushy job because he is just
    > a patsy, and after all,
    >>>>> profits matter. Read history. My
    > argument is proved
    >>>>> every day by the people flooding
    > our borders to get
    >>>>> here, where freedom still exists.
    > Freedom is in our
    >>>>> local elected school boards, not
    > a takeover of schools
    >>>>> by the feds so they can be sold
    > to rich men in suits.
    >>>>>
    >>>>>
    >>>>> n 7/08/14, PsyGuy wrote:
    >>>>>> Yes i can compare mass producing
    > iPhones or any
    >>>>>> consumer good to the education
    > of children, just
    >>>>>> because you don't
    >>>>> agree
    >>>>>> with it doesn't make it flawed.
    > Education and
    >>>>>> manufacturing
    >>>>> are
    >>>>>> both system processes. Kids
    > arent unique, lots of
    >>>>>> educators
    >>>>> and
    >>>>>> human development professionals
    > want to think they are,
    >>>>>> but biologically the cognitive
    > mechanism of learning is
    >>>>> equivalent.
    >>>>>> Thats why teaching works as a
    > profession. You put 30
    >>>>>> kids in a room, present
    > instruction, and about 24 of
    >>>>>> them are successful in the
    > knowledge transfer process.
    >>>>>>
    >>>>>> Yes its against the law now, but
    > laws change, and
    >>>>>> theres no reason to create a
    > separate government office
    >>>>>> or department to manage a
    > national curriculum.
    >>>>>>
    >>>>>> So, what EVERY other country in
    > the world is
    >>>>>> brainwashing
    >>>>> their
    >>>>>> youth because they have a
    > "national curriculum", sounds
    >>>>>> like a conspiracy run by extra
    > terrestrials.
    >>>>>>
    >>>>>> Yes students should be assessed
    > based on objective test
    >>>>> scores,
    >>>>>> thats how EVERY other country in
    > the world does it, and
    >>>>>> how this country does it for a
    > lot of professions, want
    >>>>>> to be a teacher, you have to
    > take the TeXas PPR and the
    >>>>>> content exams, its the same in
    > EVERY regulated
    >>>>>> profession, why, tests work,
    > they are scientifically
    >>>>>> and statistically valid measures
    > of performance. They
    >>>>>> have far higher validity and
    > reliability
    >>>>> than
    >>>>>> some teachers subjective
    > measurement.
    >>>>>>
    >>>>>> On 7/08/14, PsyGuy's argument is
    > faulty wrote:
    >>>>>>> PsyGuy's argument is flawed.
    > You can't compare mass
    >>>>>>> producing iPhones on a factory
    > line, with the
    >>>>>>> education of children, each
    > unique. However, his
    >>>>>>> argument illustrates the reason
    > why it is all crashing
    >>>>>>> down. It is against the law in
    > the US for the
    >>>>>>> Department of Education to
    > impose a "curriculum" or
    >>>>>>> standards on all the schools.
    > That is why there was
    >>>>>>> the "Race to the Top" contest,
    > so states would grab
    >>>>>>> the $$ and the claim could be
    > made they were choosing
    >>>>>>> this crap. PsyGuy only wants
    > the national curr. and
    >>>>>>> standards if his political side
    > writes their slant
    >>>>>>> into them and the students are
    > getting brainwashed his
    >>>>>>> way. He doesn't want them
    > brainwashed by your
    >>>>>>> political team. I don't want
    > the gov't. in our schools
    >>>>>>> at all because politicians
    > don't know what the heck we
    >>>>>>> do in the classroom. Local
    > control and choice is the
    >>>>>>> most powerful position, and the
    > one where quality can
    >>>>>>> be chosen for students. Take
    > PsyGuy's stand and make
    >>>>>>> Gates and Pearson rich...he
    > needs another yacht and
    >>>>>>> mansion by evaluating teachers
    > based on student test
    >>>>>>> scores, don't ya' think?
    >>>>>>>
    >>>>>>>
    >>>>>>> On 7/08/14, PsyGuy wrote:
    >>>>>>>> The Department of Education.
    >>>>>>>>
    >>>>>>>> Thats why their called
    > standards, you dont need to
    >>>>>>>> "like" them,
    >>>>>>> you
    >>>>>>>> need to comply with them.
    >>>>>>>>
    >>>>>>>> Common core sucks, we need a
    > national curriculum that
    >>>>>>>> works, just because the first
    > implementation doesnt
    >>>>>>>> work does not mean abandon the
    > cause. Every other
    >>>>>>>> country in the world has a
    > national curriculum and
    >>>>>>>> they didnt get it right the
    > first time either.
    >>>>>>>>
    >>>>>>>> Would you want your iPhone
    > made without standards,
    >>>>>>>> would you want your doctor not
    > held to a standard of
    >>>>>>>> care and licensing, or would
    > you prefer your doctor
    >>>>>>>> get to do whatever they want
    > because of "freedom" and
    >>>>>>>> they dont "like" the standards
    > everyone else agrees
    >>>>>>>> with is good patient care.
    >>>>>>>>
    >>>>>>>> On 7/07/14, my 2 wrote:
    >>>>>>>>> Let's say you support a
    > national set of standards.
    >>>>>>>>> Who is the puppeteer? We have
    > Common Core, and over
    >>>>>>>>> 27 states have legislation to
    > get out. Ask yourself,
    >>>>>>>>> "Why?" You want kids to have
    > the choice of the same
    >>>>>>>>> education as everyone else,
    > but if you have Common
    >>>>>>>>> Standards, you end up with no
    > choice,
    >>>>>>>> because if
    >>>>>>>>> you don't like them, you
    > can't move to get away
    >>>>>>>>> because they are everywhere.
    > We already see people
    >>>>>>>>> moving to Texas to get away
    > from Common Core. It is
    >>>>>>>>> naive to assume that the
    > "standards" chosen for
    >>>>>>>>> everyone by some political
    > person who has never been
    >>>>>>>>> in education are going to be
    > the pot of gold at the
    >>>>>>>>> end of the rainbow. Get real.
    > If you are fighting
    >>>>>>>>> for poor kids, give them a
    > real shot at opportunity.
    >>>>>>>>> Freedom is always more
    > choice, not less. Think about
    >>>>>>>>> it, there always was a
    > standard spiral curriculum,
    >>>>>>>>> because textbooks were sold
    > to more than one state.
    >>>>>>>>> If things were not
    > standardized at a basic level,
    >>>>>>>>> that couldn't have worked,
    > but it did. Look, just on
    >>>>>>>>> this chat thread, three
    > people can't even agree
    >>>>>>>>> about the issue of
    > personalized learning vs.
    >>>>>>>>> standardized. Yet, you want
    > someone in Washington to
    >>>>>>>>> write standards for all of
    > us? The question is why
    >>>>>>>>> would you, who pretend to
    > care about poor children,
    >>>>>>>>> sell your students to the
    > money machine of CC and
    >>>>>>>>> all the testing...to line the
    > pockets Gates,
    >>>>>>>>> Walmart, Broad, etc?
    > Education is not about profits.
    >>>>>>>>> You are fighting on the wrong
    > side and at some deep
    >>>>>>>>> level you must know
    >>>>>> that
    >>>>>>>>> selling your students to
    > Wally-world schools isn't
    >>>>>>>>> going to fix the world for
    > them. They will just drop
    >>>>>>>>> out, frustrated over the
    > testing money machine.
    >>>>>>>>>
    >>>>>>>>>
    >>>>>>>>>
    >>>>>>>>> On 7/07/14, PsyGuy wrote:
    >>>>>>>>>> Students ned to have
    > knowledge and understanding of
    >>>>>>>>>> subject material OUTSIDE
    > those fields of study they
    >>>>>>>>>> find interesting.
    >>>>>>>>>>
    >>>>>>>>>> The outside world will
    > require these young students
    >>>>>>>>>> to do various amounts or
    > work and tasks that they
    >>>>>>>>>> DONT find interesting, life
    > is not all about fun.
    >>>>>>>>>>
    >>>>>>>>>> STANDARDS need to be
    > stronger, we are the ONLY
    >>>>>> country
    >>>>>>>>>> in the world that does not
    > have a NATIONAL
    >>>>>>>>>> curriculum and you dont even
    > want a national
    >>>>>>>>>> standard, your position is
    > basically
    >>>>>>>>> to
    >>>>>>>>>> support NON ACCOUNTABILITY.
    > We tried that we
    >> ended
    >>>>>> up
    >>>>>>>>>> with football players who
    > couldnt read, and nice
    >>>>>>>>>> girls who were
    >>>>>>>>> great
    >>>>>>>>>> teachers pets who couldnt do
    > arithmetic.
    >>>>>>>>>>
    >>>>>>>>>> No they are not all capable
    > of becoming genesis,
    >>>>>>>>>> Intelligence distribution
    > has CONSTANTLY been shown
    >>>>>> to
    >>>>>>>>>> fit a normal curve.
    >>>>>>>>>>
    >>>>>>>>>> On 7/06/14, To AW wrote:
    >>>>>>>>>>> I am pushing the fact that
    > the main curriculum of
    >>>>>>>>>>> schools should be a model
    > that allows for a
    >>>>>>>>>>> personalized curriculum.
    > Personalization should
    >>>>>>>>>>> not be just through
    > "electives", it should the
    >>>>>>>>>>> core of the curriculum.
    >>>>>>>>>>>
    >>>>>>>>>>> Anybody, not just kids,
    > will put forth an extreme
    >>>>>>>>>>> amount of effort to learn
    > things that interest
    >>>>>>>>>>> them, and appeal to them.
    > It needs to be
    >>>>>>>>>>> incorporated in every
    > student's learning.
    >>>>>>>>>>>
    >>>>>>>>>>> Students associate learning
    > with boring things at
    >>>>>>>>>>> school. This only creates
    > kids that are
    >>>>>>>>>>> disinterested in doing
    > anything to learn, or
    >>>>>>>>>>> anything to do with school.
    > Instead of creating
    >>>>>>>>>>> students with this
    > attitude, we need to create
    >>>>>>>>>>> students who are intrigued
    > in learning, and want
    >>>>>>>>>>> to be better themselves.
    >>>>>>>>>>>
    >>>>>>>>>>> Also, the standardization
    > needs to abolished. We
    >>>>>>>>>>> can not rank kids based on
    > a set of values that we
    >>>>>>>>>>> think are important. Not
    > all kids are going to be
    >>>>>>>>>>> successful at those values,
    > and the ranking system
    >>>>>>>>>>> only tells them that they
    > aren't good enough to be
    >>>>>>>>>>> anything. They're humans.
    > Humans that have
    >>>>>>>>>>> different interests,
    > different talents, different
    >>>>>>>>>>> tastes, and different
    > things they are capable of
    >>>>>>>>>>> excelling at. Why are we
    > not embracing these
    >>>>>>>>>>> differences? We don't
    > encourage students to do
    >>>>>>>>>>> what they're good at, but
    > instead we rank them on
    >>>>>>>>>>> what they might not be good
    > at. Then
    >>>>>> that
    >>>>>>>>>>> ranking effects their
    > future by inhibiting them
    >>>>>>>>>>> from a good college, as
    > well as psychologically
    >>>>>>>>>>> because they feel they
    > aren't capable of doing
    >>>>>>>>>>> anything great.
    >>>>>>>>>>>
    >>>>>>>>>>> Students are not born smart
    > (maybe some), like the
    >>>>>>>>>>> ranking system (GPA/Grades)
    > suggests. They are ALL
    >>>>>>>>>>> capable of becoming
    > geniuses at ANYTHING they
    >>>>>> please,
    >>>>>>>>>>> but when you tell a student
    > his GPA is bad &
    >>>>>>>>>>> compare him to someone else
    > who is way better,
    >>>>>>>>>>> they feel worthless. When
    > really, that might not
    >>>>>>>>>>> even be what interests him,
    > nor where his talent
    >>>>>>>>>>> shines!
    >>>>>>>>>>>
    >>>>>>>>>>>
    >>>>>>>>>>> On 7/04/14, AW wrote:
    >>>>>>>>>>>> Hunter, I can't justify
    > common core as "we" in
    >>>>>>>>>>>> Texas don't use it. Psyguy
    > is a proponent of
    >>>>>>>>>>>> common core
    >>>>>> so
    >>>>>>>>>>>> he would have to enlighten
    > you with CC's program
    >>>>>>>>>>>> is so beneficial.
    >>>>>>>>>>>>
    >>>>>>>>>>>> I was replying to your
    > "solutions." Most of your
    >>>>>>>>>>>> comments are "general" and
    > various comments
    >> may
    >>>>>> apply
    >>>>>>>>>>>> to some schools,
    >>>>>>>>>>> but
    >>>>>>>>>>>> I would guess that could
    > be applied to any state
    >>>>>>>>>>>> or country. None of your
    > comments apply to my
    >>>>>>>>>>>> school.
    >>>>>>>>>>>>
    >>>>>>>>>>>> So I have to ask....what
    > program are you pushing?


    Posts on this thread, including this one

  • The Education System is FAILING, 7/01/14, by Hunter.
  • Re: The Education System is FAILING, 7/01/14, by Hunter.
  • Re: The Education System is FAILING, 7/02/14, by AW -- I think you are a little behind the times.
  • Re: The Education System is FAILING, 7/03/14, by Huner.
  • Re: The Education System is FAILING, 7/04/14, by AW.
  • Re: The Education System is FAILING, 7/04/14, by to Hunter.
  • Re: The Education System is FAILING, 7/04/14, by PsyGuy.
  • Re: The Education System is FAILING, 7/04/14, by to PsyGuy.
  • Re: The Education System is FAILING, 7/04/14, by PsyGuy.
  • Re: The Education System is FAILING, 7/04/14, by answer.
  • Re: The Education System is FAILING, 7/06/14, by muinteoir.
  • Re: The Education System is FAILING, 7/06/14, by To AW.
  • Re: The Education System is FAILING, 7/07/14, by PsyGuy.
  • Re: The Education System is FAILING, 7/07/14, by PsyGuy.
  • Re: The Education System is FAILING, 7/07/14, by my 2 .
  • Re: The Education System is FAILING, 7/07/14, by my 2 .
  • Re: The Education System is FAILING, 7/07/14, by hmmmmmm.
  • Re: The Education System is FAILING, 7/08/14, by PsyGuy.
  • Re: The Education System is FAILING, 7/08/14, by PsyGuy's argument is faulty.
  • Re: The Education System is FAILING, 7/08/14, by PsyGuy.
  • Re: The Education System is FAILING, 7/09/14, by don't sell our kids.
  • Re: The Education System is FAILING, 7/09/14, by PsyGuy.
  • Re: The Education System is FAILING, 7/09/14, by fight back now.
  • Re: The Education System is FAILING, 7/09/14, by PsyGuy.
  • Re: The Education System is FAILING, 7/10/14, by Hunter.
  • Re: The Education System is FAILING, 7/10/14, by to Hunter.
  • Re: The Education System is FAILING, 7/10/14, by whomever.
  • Re: The Education System is FAILING, 7/11/14, by PsyGuy.
  • Re: The Education System is FAILING, 7/11/14, by about Finland.
  • Re: The Education System is FAILING, 7/13/14, by Hunter.