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Thanks for your input, and I'm glad
you see the flaws as well.

I do agree with the difference in
Finland's demographics, but I feel
with enough brainstorming that there
is a way around it.

I'd like to keep in touch and
exchange some words, would you care
to email me at Hunter.mail@aol.com

On 7/10/14, to Hunter wrote:
> Hunter, I agree with almost
everything that you said in your
> post. I only take issue with the
constant comparison of US
> scores to Finland. They don't have
any magic bullet. They
> don't have the diverse populations
that make up the American
> school. Look up "demographically
adjusted PISA scores" and
> you will see that the US students
rank right up there with
> Canada, Finland, and other advanced
countries. The public is
> getting fed up with our throwing
money at education to buy
> into fads that are getting more and
more ridiculous. The
> movement is coming to a head. There
is huge pushback against
> state tests, and when that domino
falls, the rest will begin
> to topple. I am for a return to
traditional instruction and
> classical education which has a
long track record of working.
> I appreciate your thoughtful
commentary.
>
>
> On 7/10/14, Hunter wrote:
>> You know what's ironic? The fact
that the United States,
>> for the past 15 years, has
performed average or below
>> average on a worldwide educational
rank.
>>
>> The United States, is below
average in mathematics,
>> average in reading, and average in
science. This has been
>> the case for 15 years, despite the
fact that the U.S. pays
>> the most money per child in
education.
>>
>> Who is number one? Finland,
cosistiently. What do they
>> value? Creative, personalized, and
individual learning.
>> They have taken away all
standardizations, all tests, and
>> all government regulation.
Teachers are no longer
>> evaluated by test scores.
>>
>> So tests are scientifically proven
to be an appropriate
>> measure of a students performance?
A brief look at this
>> data and common sense clearly
seems to disagree with that.
>>
>> The best way to implement
education is NOT through the
>> process of an assembly line, where
all students are
>> expected to perform the exact same
things, clearly.
>> Students are human, they're not
robots that can just be
>> TRAINED like some sort of pet.
>>
>>
>> On 7/09/14, PsyGuy wrote:
>>> I would, but im not the blindly
>> patriotic or nationalistic type.
>>>
>>> We dont lead the world in
>> conservation,were not even in the
top 10
>>> (Iceland is number 1), many
>> countries such as Japan do a far
better
>>> job than we do (where all
households
>> are required to sort trash on
>>> its recyclability).
>>>
>>> Nor in philanthropy, we came in
>> thirteenth, with the UK and
>>> Mynamar holding the number 1 and
2
>> spots.
>>>
>>> Were not even top in innovation,
>> aside from the generally held
>>> consensus that our patent system
is
>> incredibly broken, both South
>>> Korea and Sweden beat the USA
(which
>> was number 3).
>>>
>>> Freedom, nope not number 1 were
not
>> even in the top 10 anymore
>>> (were around number 12), Hong
Kong
>> for the 20th straight year
>>> ranks as number 1.
>>>
>>> The King James Bible is the most
>> studied document in the world,
>>> not the US constitution.
>>>
>>> Freedom and money sure do go hand
in
>> hand, those with the money
>>> have the most freedom.
>>>>
>>>> On 7/09/14, PsyGuy wrote:
>>>>> Yeah a long stupid tradition
>> (hello metric system),
>>>>> different
>>>> doesnt
>>>>> mean better. We brag about
>> freedom, but in most of the
>>>>> world such as europe, etc they
are
>> a lot more free than
>>>>> we are. No one is flooding our
>> borders for "freedom" they
>>>>> are doing so for dollars. You
>> could argue that its the
>>>>> freedom of making dollars, but
>> dont fool yourself, love
>>>>> makes the world go round, love
of
>> money.
>>>>>
>>>>> On 7/09/14, don't sell our kids
>> wrote:
>>>>>> The United States has a long
>> history of not doing what
>>>>>> every other country in the
world
>> is doing. We do
>>>>>> freedom. Centralized education
is
>> not freedom. Right
>>>>>> now, if you don't like
something
>> your school is doing on
>>>>>> behalf of YOUR child, go to
your
>> local school board and
>>>>>> change it. If PsyGuy wins, are
>> you going to fly to
>>>>>> Washington and get something
>> changed with a bunch of
>>>>>> educrats in suits? Yeah,
right.
>> This discussion all
>>>>>> rides on whether or not you
think
>> your child is best
>>>>>> served by a conveyor belt,
>> factory approach to
>>>>>> education. Once our children
are
>> sold for profits, there
>>>>>> is no turning back, and
teaching
>> can be controlled, and
>>>>>> it will be. Teachers will
largely
>> be replaced with
>>>>>> uncertified people...yes, even
>> boorish PsyGuy will lose
>>>>>> his cushy job because he is
just
>> a patsy, and after all,
>>>>>> profits matter. Read history.
My
>> argument is proved
>>>>>> every day by the people
flooding
>> our borders to get
>>>>>> here, where freedom still
exists.
>> Freedom is in our
>>>>>> local elected school boards,
not
>> a takeover of schools
>>>>>> by the feds so they can be
sold
>> to rich men in suits.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> n 7/08/14, PsyGuy wrote:
>>>>>>> Yes i can compare mass
producing
>> iPhones or any
>>>>>>> consumer good to the
education
>> of children, just
>>>>>>> because you don't
>>>>>> agree
>>>>>>> with it doesn't make it
flawed.
>> Education and
>>>>>>> manufacturing
>>>>>> are
>>>>>>> both system processes. Kids
>> arent unique, lots of
>>>>>>> educators
>>>>>> and
>>>>>>> human development
professionals
>> want to think they are,
>>>>>>> but biologically the
cognitive
>> mechanism of learning is
>>>>>> equivalent.
>>>>>>> Thats why teaching works as a
>> profession. You put 30
>>>>>>> kids in a room, present
>> instruction, and about 24 of
>>>>>>> them are successful in the
>> knowledge transfer process.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Yes its against the law now,
but
>> laws change, and
>>>>>>> theres no reason to create a
>> separate government office
>>>>>>> or department to manage a
>> national curriculum.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> So, what EVERY other country
in
>> the world is
>>>>>>> brainwashing
>>>>>> their
>>>>>>> youth because they have a
>> "national curriculum", sounds
>>>>>>> like a conspiracy run by
extra
>> terrestrials.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Yes students should be
assessed
>> based on objective test
>>>>>> scores,
>>>>>>> thats how EVERY other country
in
>> the world does it, and
>>>>>>> how this country does it for
a
>> lot of professions, want
>>>>>>> to be a teacher, you have to
>> take the TeXas PPR and the
>>>>>>> content exams, its the same
in
>> EVERY regulated
>>>>>>> profession, why, tests work,
>> they are scientifically
>>>>>>> and statistically valid
measures
>> of performance. They
>>>>>>> have far higher validity and
>> reliability
>>>>>> than
>>>>>>> some teachers subjective
>> measurement.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On 7/08/14, PsyGuy's argument
is
>> faulty wrote:
>>>>>>>> PsyGuy's argument is flawed.
>> You can't compare mass
>>>>>>>> producing iPhones on a
factory
>> line, with the
>>>>>>>> education of children, each
>> unique. However, his
>>>>>>>> argument illustrates the
reason
>> why it is all crashing
>>>>>>>> down. It is against the law
in
>> the US for the
>>>>>>>> Department of Education to
>> impose a "curriculum" or
>>>>>>>> standards on all the
schools.
>> That is why there was
>>>>>>>> the "Race to the Top"
contest,
>> so states would grab
>>>>>>>> the $$ and the claim could
be
>> made they were choosing
>>>>>>>> this crap. PsyGuy only wants
>> the national curr. and
>>>>>>>> standards if his political
side
>> writes their slant
>>>>>>>> into them and the students
are
>> getting brainwashed his
>>>>>>>> way. He doesn't want them
>> brainwashed by your
>>>>>>>> political team. I don't want
>> the gov't. in our schools
>>>>>>>> at all because politicians
>> don't know what the heck we
>>>>>>>> do in the classroom. Local
>> control and choice is the
>>>>>>>> most powerful position, and
the
>> one where quality can
>>>>>>>> be chosen for students. Take
>> PsyGuy's stand and make
>>>>>>>> Gates and Pearson rich...he
>> needs another yacht and
>>>>>>>> mansion by evaluating
teachers
>> based on student test
>>>>>>>> scores, don't ya' think?
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> On 7/08/14, PsyGuy wrote:
>>>>>>>>> The Department of
Education.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Thats why their called
>> standards, you dont need to
>>>>>>>>> "like" them,
>>>>>>>> you
>>>>>>>>> need to comply with them.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Common core sucks, we need
a
>> national curriculum that
>>>>>>>>> works, just because the
first
>> implementation doesnt
>>>>>>>>> work does not mean abandon
the
>> cause. Every other
>>>>>>>>> country in the world has a
>> national curriculum and
>>>>>>>>> they didnt get it right the
>> first time either.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Would you want your iPhone
>> made without standards,
>>>>>>>>> would you want your doctor
not
>> held to a standard of
>>>>>>>>> care and licensing, or
would
>> you prefer your doctor
>>>>>>>>> get to do whatever they
want
>> because of "freedom" and
>>>>>>>>> they dont "like" the
standards
>> everyone else agrees
>>>>>>>>> with is good patient care.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> On 7/07/14, my 2 wrote:
>>>>>>>>>> Let's say you support a
>> national set of standards.
>>>>>>>>>> Who is the puppeteer? We
have
>> Common Core, and over
>>>>>>>>>> 27 states have legislation
to
>> get out. Ask yourself,
>>>>>>>>>> "Why?" You want kids to
have
>> the choice of the same
>>>>>>>>>> education as everyone
else,
>> but if you have Common
>>>>>>>>>> Standards, you end up with
no
>> choice,
>>>>>>>>> because if
>>>>>>>>>> you don't like them, you
>> can't move to get away
>>>>>>>>>> because they are
everywhere.
>> We already see people
>>>>>>>>>> moving to Texas to get
away
>> from Common Core. It is
>>>>>>>>>> naive to assume that the
>> "standards" chosen for
>>>>>>>>>> everyone by some political
>> person who has never been
>>>>>>>>>> in education are going to
be
>> the pot of gold at the
>>>>>>>>>> end of the rainbow. Get
real.
>> If you are fighting
>>>>>>>>>> for poor kids, give them a
>> real shot at opportunity.
>>>>>>>>>> Freedom is always more
>> choice, not less. Think about
>>>>>>>>>> it, there always was a
>> standard spiral curriculum,
>>>>>>>>>> because textbooks were
sold
>> to more than one state.
>>>>>>>>>> If things were not
>> standardized at a basic level,
>>>>>>>>>> that couldn't have worked,
>> but it did. Look, just on
>>>>>>>>>> this chat thread, three
>> people can't even agree
>>>>>>>>>> about the issue of
>> personalized learning vs.
>>>>>>>>>> standardized. Yet, you
want
>> someone in Washington to
>>>>>>>>>> write standards for all of
>> us? The question is why
>>>>>>>>>> would you, who pretend to
>> care about poor children,
>>>>>>>>>> sell your students to the
>> money machine of CC and
>>>>>>>>>> all the testing...to line
the
>> pockets Gates,
>>>>>>>>>> Walmart, Broad, etc?
>> Education is not about profits.
>>>>>>>>>> You are fighting on the
wrong
>> side and at some deep
>>>>>>>>>> level you must know
>>>>>>> that
>>>>>>>>>> selling your students to
>> Wally-world schools isn't
>>>>>>>>>> going to fix the world for
>> them. They will just drop
>>>>>>>>>> out, frustrated over the
>> testing money machine.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> On 7/07/14, PsyGuy wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>> Students ned to have
>> knowledge and understanding of
>>>>>>>>>>> subject material OUTSIDE
>> those fields of study they
>>>>>>>>>>> find interesting.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> The outside world will
>> require these young students
>>>>>>>>>>> to do various amounts or
>> work and tasks that they
>>>>>>>>>>> DONT find interesting,
life
>> is not all about fun.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> STANDARDS need to be
>> stronger, we are the ONLY
>>>>>>> country
>>>>>>>>>>> in the world that does
not
>> have a NATIONAL
>>>>>>>>>>> curriculum and you dont
even
>> want a national
>>>>>>>>>>> standard, your position
is
>> basically
>>>>>>>>>> to
>>>>>>>>>>> support NON
ACCOUNTABILITY.
>> We tried that we
>>> ended
>>>>>>> up
>>>>>>>>>>> with football players who
>> couldnt read, and nice
>>>>>>>>>>> girls who were
>>>>>>>>>> great
>>>>>>>>>>> teachers pets who couldnt
do
>> arithmetic.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> No they are not all
capable
>> of becoming genesis,
>>>>>>>>>>> Intelligence distribution
>> has CONSTANTLY been shown
>>>>>>> to
>>>>>>>>>>> fit a normal curve.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> On 7/06/14, To AW wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>> I am pushing the fact
that
>> the main curriculum of
>>>>>>>>>>>> schools should be a
model
>> that allows for a
>>>>>>>>>>>> personalized curriculum.
>> Personalization should
>>>>>>>>>>>> not be just through
>> "electives", it should the
>>>>>>>>>>>> core of the curriculum.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> Anybody, not just kids,
>> will put forth an extreme
>>>>>>>>>>>> amount of effort to
learn
>> things that interest
>>>>>>>>>>>> them, and appeal to
them.
>> It needs to be
>>>>>>>>>>>> incorporated in every
>> student's learning.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> Students associate
learning
>> with boring things at
>>>>>>>>>>>> school. This only
creates
>> kids that are
>>>>>>>>>>>> disinterested in doing
>> anything to learn, or
>>>>>>>>>>>> anything to do with
school.
>> Instead of creating
>>>>>>>>>>>> students with this
>> attitude, we need to create
>>>>>>>>>>>> students who are
intrigued
>> in learning, and want
>>>>>>>>>>>> to be better themselves.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> Also, the
standardization
>> needs to abolished. We
>>>>>>>>>>>> can not rank kids based
on
>> a set of values that we
>>>>>>>>>>>> think are important. Not
>> all kids are going to be
>>>>>>>>>>>> successful at those
values,
>> and the ranking system
>>>>>>>>>>>> only tells them that
they
>> aren't good enough to be
>>>>>>>>>>>> anything. They're
humans.
>> Humans that have
>>>>>>>>>>>> different interests,
>> different talents, different
>>>>>>>>>>>> tastes, and different
>> things they are capable of
>>>>>>>>>>>> excelling at. Why are we
>> not embracing these
>>>>>>>>>>>> differences? We don't
>> encourage students to do
>>>>>>>>>>>> what they're good at,
but
>> instead we rank them on
>>>>>>>>>>>> what they might not be
good
>> at. Then
>>>>>>> that
>>>>>>>>>>>> ranking effects their
>> future by inhibiting them
>>>>>>>>>>>> from a good college, as
>> well as psychologically
>>>>>>>>>>>> because they feel they
>> aren't capable of doing
>>>>>>>>>>>> anything great.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> Students are not born
smart
>> (maybe some), like the
>>>>>>>>>>>> ranking system
(GPA/Grades)
>> suggests. They are ALL
>>>>>>>>>>>> capable of becoming
>> geniuses at ANYTHING they
>>>>>>> please,
>>>>>>>>>>>> but when you tell a
student
>> his GPA is bad &
>>>>>>>>>>>> compare him to someone
else
>> who is way better,
>>>>>>>>>>>> they feel worthless.
When
>> really, that might not
>>>>>>>>>>>> even be what interests
him,
>> nor where his talent
>>>>>>>>>>>> shines!
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> On 7/04/14, AW wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Hunter, I can't justify
>> common core as "we" in
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Texas don't use it.
Psyguy
>> is a proponent of
>>>>>>>>>>>>> common core
>>>>>>> so
>>>>>>>>>>>>> he would have to
enlighten
>> you with CC's program
>>>>>>>>>>>>> is so beneficial.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> I was replying to your
>> "solutions." Most of your
>>>>>>>>>>>>> comments are "general"
and
>> various comments
>>> may
>>>>>>> apply
>>>>>>>>>>>>> to some schools,
>>>>>>>>>>>> but
>>>>>>>>>>>>> I would guess that
could
>> be applied to any state
>>>>>>>>>>>>> or country. None of
your
>> comments apply to my
>>>>>>>>>>>>> school.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> So I have to
ask....what
>> program are you pushing?

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