question on ethics at the college level

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question on ethics at the college level

by mama maria- whos dd dropped a class rather then complain

Nov 4, 2010

My dd just dropped a class rather then complain, it was a 4 credit elective class, she will have to take another to replace the upper level credits 9she needs x number of 3 and 400 level classes to get her degree).

ok here is what happened, dd is very bright, dd started college at age 14, dd could have graduated college by 18 with a 4 yr degree had we pushed her, but she pushed herself hard enough so instead, by her own choise she ended up with an associates at age 17.

fast forward, she gets into a honors program at a good 4 yr university with allmost full scholorships. as part of the honors program she has to take additional classes to those allready required for her degree, no problem, this if "fair" you want an honors diploma and the money that goes with it you should be doing something to earn it.

however, in the class she just dropped, it was not an honors class, she found out the teacher was holding her to different standards then the other students. in...See MoreMy dd just dropped a class rather then complain, it was a 4 credit elective class, she will have to take another to replace the upper level credits 9she needs x number of 3 and 400 level classes to get her degree).

ok here is what happened, dd is very bright, dd started college at age 14, dd could have graduated college by 18 with a 4 yr degree had we pushed her, but she pushed herself hard enough so instead, by her own choise she ended up with an associates at age 17.

fast forward, she gets into a honors program at a good 4 yr university with allmost full scholorships. as part of the honors program she has to take additional classes to those allready required for her degree, no problem, this if "fair" you want an honors diploma and the money that goes with it you should be doing something to earn it.

however, in the class she just dropped, it was not an honors class, she found out the teacher was holding her to different standards then the other students. in all of dds college (she is a senior this year she has gotton all A's with the exception of 2 B's) dd is no slouch.

anyway this teacher required that the students write a paper based on scientific articles, the paper was going to be 25% of the final grade. the students had to 1st pick a topic and then find 6 scientific articles on the topic to be approved by the teacher.

over 4 weeks time my dd handed in 32 different articles, the teacher rejected all but 2 of them and wrote the reasons why they were rejected down on the ones she returned. last week we found out that the teacher was accepting articles from other students that she had rejected for my dd to use.

the rational, as near as we can tell was that the teacher expected more of her then the others????? because she has a 4.0 and because she is in honors even though this is not an honors class.

dd, went back and forth debateing how to handle it and finally desided just to drop the class. her choise, she is an adult, though a young one. my question is just this

Is this something that is generally considered ethical to do at the college level? to demand different criteria for the same class, the same credits as other students are recieveing based on the teachers belief that the student is more "capable" then the others?

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rw I don't think it's generally considered ethical, but I also think your daughter should talk to the professors rather than drop the courses...

On 11/04/10, mama maria- whos dd dropped a class rather then complain wrote: > My dd just dropped a class rather then complain, it was a 4 > credit elective class, she will have to take another...See MoreI don't think it's generally considered ethical, but I also think your daughter should talk to the professors rather than drop the courses...

On 11/04/10, mama maria- whos dd dropped a class rather then complain wrote: > My dd just dropped a class rather then complain, it was a 4 > credit elective class, she will have to take another to > replace the upper level credits 9she needs x number of 3 > and 400 level classes to get her degree). > > ok here is what happened, dd is very bright, dd started > college at age 14, dd could have graduated college by 18 > with a 4 yr degree had we pushed her, but she pushed > herself hard enough so instead, by her own choise she ended > up with an associates at age 17. > > fast forward, she gets into a honors program at a good 4 yr > university with allmost full scholorships. as part of the > honors program she has to take additional classes to those > allready required for her degree, no problem, this > if "fair" you want an honors diploma and the money that > goes with it you should be doing something to earn it. > > however, in the class she just dropped, it was not an > honors class, she found out the teacher was holding her to > different standards then the other students. in all of dds > college (she is a senior this year she has gotton all A's > with the exception of 2 B's) dd is no slouch. > > anyway this teacher required that the students write a > paper based on scientific articles, the paper was going to > be 25% of the final grade. the students had to 1st pick a > topic and then find 6 scientific articles on the topic to > be approved by the teacher. > > over 4 weeks time my dd handed in 32 different articles, > the teacher rejected all but 2 of them and wrote the > reasons why they were rejected down on the ones she > returned. last week we found out that the teacher was > accepting articles from other students that she had > rejected for my dd to use. > > the rational, as near as we can tell was that the teacher > expected more of her then the others????? because she has a > 4.0 and because she is in honors even though this is not an > honors class. > > dd, went back and forth debateing how to handle it and > finally desided just to drop the class. her choise, she is > an adult, though a young one. my question is just this > > Is this something that is generally considered ethical to > do at the college level? to demand different criteria for > the same class, the same credits as other students are > recieveing based on the teachers belief that the student is > more "capable" then the others?

Nov 24, 2010

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mama maria- to sara On 11/23/10, Sara wrote: > There are no ethics in education. Of course there should be > but for the most part in many schools especially at the > college level, every instructor is rather a king or a queen > in the small kingdom of their classroom. > That is sad

> Litte of the story makes good sense - instructors rarely ...See MoreOn 11/23/10, Sara wrote: > There are no ethics in education. Of course there should be > but for the most part in many schools especially at the > college level, every instructor is rather a king or a queen > in the small kingdom of their classroom. > That is sad

> Litte of the story makes good sense - instructors rarely know > what any student's grade point average is - how this > instructor would know your daughter's grade point average is > odd. And if your daughter had discussed this with a dean, > perhaps something could have been done. >

my daughter because of her youth (she started college young and transfered to a 4 yr university at 17) also has a 504, she dosnt require much more then the use of a computer for notes and to be allowed if needed to take tests in a quite environment and on very rare occasions (long essay tests) extended time (the second and third are generally not needed as most classes are allready quite durring tests and most tests are multiple choise with only a short essays which she can do in the normal amount of time alloted.

anyway, because she was 17 when she transferred and has the 504, it had to be declared (both the age and the 504) and she is also an honors student (to be one in your senior year it requires a minimum of a 3.6 gpa (so while the teacher may or may not relize or know my dd has a 4.0, she knows at minimum she has a 3.6 gpa.

I tend to think the teacher would know, its not a huge college and there are only maybe 10 psych teachers (her major) and for whatever reason several of her teachers (in psych) have taken a intrest in her (she has allready done volunteer work for a few of them) If college is anything like it was when i went, teachers still "discuss" students with each other

> To 'complain' would not have been the best approach - to > inquire of the dean would have been. Your post says "as near > as we can tell" - that's not near enough. This matter is very > fuzzy. >

well she is 19 now (if she was still 17 and a minor I could have gone to the dean) and while she is a young adult, she is an adult and she has more then earned the right, in my eyes to make her own desicions. I guess in my heart I am a fighter and i would have preferred she fight it, but she chose not to. it was very very hard for her to do, she is a very persistant person and giving up i think may have been harder for her then fighting, but i think she saw it as a no win situation

> But what's done is done and your daughter dropped the class. > Of course the least lesson learned is not to take a course > with this professor again but to know such things can and do > happen because rather than ethics, education is full of > individuals with whimsical approaches to education. >>

I agree, except she wants to go on to grad school, she wants her phd, so she needs to keep the gpa high, she really cant "afford" "individuals with whimsical approaches to education"

at any rate it is done, and she will just have to retake a different 300 or 400 level class to get the credit she needs and pay for it again (which really kind of stinks)

> >> >> Is this something that is generally considered ethical to >> do at the college level? to demand different criteria for >> the same class, the same credits as other students are >> recieveing based on the teachers belief that the student is >> more "capable" then the others?

Nov 25, 2010

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mama maria- to everyone who responded I just wanted to thank all of you who took the time to respond to my question. I dont know if dd did the right thing or not, but its done, and after next semester she will be 3 classes from graduation, so while it is awfull that she will have to re-pay to take another 300 or 400 level class to replace the one she dropped, perhaps not as awful as ha...See More

Nov 25, 2010

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Sara On 11/23/10, bernoulli wrote: > On 11/23/10, Sara wrote: >> There are no ethics in education. Of course there should be >> but for the most part in many schools especially at the >> college level, every instructor is rather a king or a queen >> in the small kingdom of their classroom. >> > > Not sure what you ...See MoreOn 11/23/10, bernoulli wrote: > On 11/23/10, Sara wrote: >> There are no ethics in education. Of course there should be >> but for the most part in many schools especially at the >> college level, every instructor is rather a king or a queen >> in the small kingdom of their classroom. >> > > Not sure what you mean by "ethics" in this context. Ethics is > refers to having and using a process to decide what is right or > wrong.

Ethics is first a system of moral principles, agreed upon defintions of what is right and wrong. That there would then exist of process of determining whether an action is ethical or not would be the next step in the process.

It is Impossible to predict or police what goes on in every classroom in any school. Is it ethical to be unfair? Is it ethical to leer at a young female student? Would there be recourse for that leer? Is what this professor did ethical? To demand one level of performance from all students but establish a different expectation for another student?

And - how readily would the system respond to the student seeking redress?

That you have such faith in the system that it works in every context and addresses the many unethical moments that can occur in classrooms is remarkable and clearly I don't share it. Is it ethical, for one current example, to take students' papers and submit them to turnitin.com? Have students signed away their rights to those papers that are then considered the property of turninit.com?

I see a lot of ethics in higher education...but you may > not like the criteria or the results.

What you might see is the occasional tribunal and even that one can bog down the system a fair bit and cause a lot of hair to be raised on backs but every single day I see the most unethical behavior for which students simply have no recourse. To get a hearing, you must first the get the dean to agree - unless they lawyer up - and few students can afford to do that. Why would the dean leap to initiate the tribunal process and who does the dean really represent? The students or their colleague?

I work at a community college which student population consists of about 25% ESL students. Because they are ESL and because there are Americans who are uncomfortable or even resentful of immigrants - and some are teachers - I see remarkable abuse of privilege - and yes a lack of humility.

Is it ethical to change the syllabus partway throught the semester? Or the assignment partway through the assignment? I hold only one undergraduate degree to your four but in my many years of teaching I've seen that the classroom is really as I said a small kingdom where much that is unethical can and does occur and there is little notice paid it or concern directed toward it.

Are you related to the Bernoulli of Bernoulli's Principle?

> > Probably what is lacking is more consistency between instructors > and a good measure of humility. It can vary widely. I bait my > students when they complain by saying that having to contend with > 40-50 different instructor personalities in college and learning > to cope with their idiosyncrasies is a great preparation for > work life. > > In reflection, I have four college degrees from four different > universities. In addition, I have never signed up for a class > based on instructor...only on the need for the course or the > subject matter. I feel like I learned from every instructor > except one. Lucky for me some of the best classes and highest > grades were from the instructors with the worst reputations. > >

Nov 25, 2010

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bernoulli Sara -

Thanks for your thoughtful response. I was responding to your initial opening remark "The are no ethics in education." That was an absolute statement that I couldn't resist responding to.

I am not going to try to defend all of the practices of my colleagues, but I do not feel that I--and 2/3 of the colleagues in my departme...See MoreSara -

Thanks for your thoughtful response. I was responding to your initial opening remark "The are no ethics in education." That was an absolute statement that I couldn't resist responding to.

I am not going to try to defend all of the practices of my colleagues, but I do not feel that I--and 2/3 of the colleagues in my department--practice very many of the things you spoke out against (I do revise the syllabus occasionally--but always for the good of the students, not my convenience). From my point of view I would say that 1/3 of the faculty in my department are under-performing. At least they are nice people and respectful to students. My university is considered a "Hispanic Serving" institution. We have a diverse population and we don't see the same degree or type of discrimination going on that you are seeing at yours.

From my experience, one of the biggest dislikes is lack of fairness. I discovered during my first two years of teaching that being fair and consistent was important. Student don't mind a difficult class if the instructor is predictable and they know what performance is expected.

I can look at most of things you talked about here and say they are not unique to education. I worked for a major corporation for 10 years prior to going into academia. I saw sexual harassment (actually consider myself a victim of it by today's definitions), unfair evaluations of performance, and there is very little recourse for that...if any.

I don't use turnitin. I have considered it, but so far I cope by trying to make my writing assignments unique so plagiarism is unlikely. Regarding the ethics of it, I am on the fence. If students did not cheat we wouldn't need turnitin.

Thanks for your response. My biggest complaint in higher ed is not about the faculty, it is about the lack of real leadership. Sadly, public education is a political and agenda driven arm of our state and federal governments. My state legislature is a joke.

I'm not related to any Bernoullis, but I like their historical contributions to science and math.

Nov 26, 2010

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