Chapter 5

Join Teachers.Net

Chatboards

Recent Groups

Prof Readings

MEMBERS

2 Members

+ Join Group

Pinned Posts

ALLAll Teachers

Teachers.Net LIVE CHAT Support group - Tues eve!

Featured Jobs

Full-timeMontessori Teacher

Maple Ridge, British Columbia, Canada

TemporaryTeachers, rural schools

Peace River North School District

Full-timeHead Teacher: 2nd/3rd Grades – Mills College Children’s School

Mills College

Teaching Jobs on Teachers.Net

Featured Job special only $39!

https://teachers.net/jobs

Become a Teachers.Net sponsor!

Professional Readings Chatboard

Chapter 5

by judy5ca

Jan 15, 2011

Finished. Anyone else?

Comment

(10)

report post

view previous comments

judy5ca (more later, off to work) On 1/17/11, Jan, butting in... wrote: > We talk about working memory holding 7 +/-2 but that is for > an adult. A child cannot hold this much. A second grader,for > example, may only be able to hold 3/4 things. > > I haven;t read this Chapter 5......Willingham is confusing me > a bit; I think he is too imprecise, but that's just m...See MoreOn 1/17/11, Jan, butting in... wrote: > We talk about working memory holding 7 +/-2 but that is for > an adult. A child cannot hold this much. A second grader,for > example, may only be able to hold 3/4 things. > > I haven;t read this Chapter 5......Willingham is confusing me > a bit; I think he is too imprecise, but that's just me. His > chapter on Examples (chap 4) bothered me. Not sure why....it > was right but I just don't think he covered that subject at > all. He didn't give the critical attributes of good examples > and he didn't tell how to construct a good example. Without > that info, I think it was a bit useless, simply because a bad > example (not congruent) will throw the kids off forever. > > I'm sure Willingham covers this, but 2 things about working > memory that people need to know. (1) you reduce the number of > things in working memory by chunking. It can be 7 pieces or 7 > chunks. So by chunking things together there is more room. > (2) there are 4 major strategies for getting things in > working memory. There are a lot of distractions around a > classroom, and the teacher needs to get his/her things in > working memory so needs some strategies. > > Madeline always used the work table analogy for working > memory. Think of 7pieces of information spread out on a work > table. That's about all it can hold without some dropping > off. But,if you can combine some of those 7, you can get > more. There can be 7 M&Ms or 7 packages of M&Ms. The more > chunking you can do, the more things can be kept in working > memory long enough to get them into long term. Then the > question becomes how to get these chunks into long term memory > because nothing in short term will stay there unless you work > at it, so you want to begin getting them into long term as > quickly as possible. There are also strategies for getting > bits of info out of short term into long term > > When I first knew Madeline she used the examples of the work > table for short term and the filing cabinet for long term. We > file info away into neat little chunks (file folders) for long > term storage. As the research changed, though, and we learned > that memories are constructed, she changed the file cabinet to > tinker toys. Now we see long term memory like tinker toys > being put together. Each thing that goes into long term (if > it is important enough and taught well enough) should hook > right on to the existing tinker toy structure. We see that > tinker toy structure getting larger and larger as more like > information is joined. And, that,of course leads to > retrieval….because the bigger and stronger the chunk, the > easier it to retrieve. > > And, there are also strategies to help retrieval. I love the > topic of memory….always my favorite input session to teach! > I have no idea if Willingham talks about memory in this > chapter, but in some of your responses, I noticed your talking > about memory. I’ve never heard it linked to practice exactly > like I think you were discussing in your posts, although > practice is ONE of the strategies for getting something from > short term into long term...except in memory we call it > 'rehearsal.'lol And, there are different kinds of rehearsal > depending on how long you want to remember something because > we do NOT want everything going into long term! Some things > are to know and forget or those tinker toys in your brain are > going to become too cumbersome to retrieve! I’m off to the > eye doctor…I’ll try to read chapter 5 there then maybe I will > actually know what you are talking about. > > Sorry if I confused the issue here.....I'm good at that as you > know. > > Cheers! > > >

Jan 17, 2011

report post

KimK1ca I found the chapter interesting but I had to keep re-reading in order to solidify my understanding.

Jan writes:

I'm sure Willingham covers this, but 2 things about working memory that people need to know. (1) you reduce the number of things in working memory by chunking. It can be 7 pieces or 7 chunks. So by chunking things toge...See More

Jan 17, 2011

report post

KimK1ca I was only able to "chunk" a portion of your response at a time, Jan, so I temporarily forgot about 'practice.' Willingham does mention this as method of moving information from short- to long- term memory.

He suggests practice spaced out over time and practice within the context of something meaningful, like a more complicated skill. Int...See More

Jan 17, 2011

report post

Jan I actually have now read the chapter and enjoyed it. He's not easy to follow, and, like you, Kim, I had to reread it in order for it to hook itself on to my memory tinker toy! I think the problem I'm having with the book..and that's not Willingham's problem, but mine...is that he doesn't clearly translate the principles of psychology to educational...See MoreI actually have now read the chapter and enjoyed it. He's not easy to follow, and, like you, Kim, I had to reread it in order for it to hook itself on to my memory tinker toy! I think the problem I'm having with the book..and that's not Willingham's problem, but mine...is that he doesn't clearly translate the principles of psychology to educational practice. He gives us good information, but doesn't help us to incorporate them in our own practice. For example, his information on learning to automaticity....very interesting about why kids must learn the words before they can begin to understand...but not a lot of information about how teachers should deal with it.

I can see now why Madeline Hunter who was a psychologist, not a teacher, saw the need for translating the principles of psychology to teacher practice. She said teachers were not able to make that transfer as well as they should and she felt they shouldn't have to! Transfer is hard...teachers only had one or two courses in psychology so were unable to make the transfer. Madeline saw the connection between the two and did the translation for us. And I can certainly see the need. Veteran teachers can transfer ok, but the beginning teacher cannot.And, I don;t think veteran teachers can do it as well as we should. With Willingham, I'm able to do it because I already have the teaching practice side so I make the connection that way. But, I sure wouldn't be making it on my own if I hadn't already learned it from the other end.

So really, my stuff about short term memory wasn't that applicable to the chapter because he took it from a different perspective. The chapter on examples which Willingham related to transfer really confused me...totally different from Perkins, the Harvard guy who has done both the research and the translation for education. For ME, it was very confusing as far as transfer is concerned,but,more than that, he did not go into the valuable way that examples can be used. After that chapter, I kind of closed by Kindle and gave up on Willingham. But, this chapter I did find interesting....although not enlightening in terms of application to the classroom.

On 1/17/11, KimK1ca wrote: > I found the chapter interesting but I had to keep re-reading in > order to solidify my understanding. > > Jan writes: > > > I'm sure Willingham covers this, but 2 things about working > memory that people need to know. (1) you reduce the number of > things in working memory by chunking. It can be 7 pieces or 7 > chunks. So by chunking things together there is more room. > (2) there are 4 major strategies for getting things in > working memory. There are a lot of distractions around a > classroom, and the teacher needs to get his/her things in > working memory so needs some strategies. > > I was able to connect this information to what I already know > about teaching reading. Willingham says that in order to move > things from short term to long term memory, you can (1) chunk, > as you mention; (2) develop the background knowledge necessary > to make the new information meaningful; (3)ensure that the new > material is attended to (you have to think about it). > > Another thought I had while reading this chapter was a "forest > for the trees" analogy - the fixation on minor details that can > confuse, as opposed to the 'big picture' that allows you to make > meaning. > > For myself, I hate the 'part to whole' stuff that has not been > introduced as a 'whole' first. I think that peeve relates to > what he is talking about.

I really relate to this. I am totally a holistic learner and absolutely must have the whole before I get to the parts. I have to, for example, read the brief summary of a book on Amazon before I read the book. If I don't, I'm halfway through before the pieces begin to fit together. I need to have that summary as a structure to hang the pieces on. Shelby had the same problem. I taught her this trick and it has really helped her. I suspect more kids are like this than we realize. I know that we changed the original BTSA support provider training because no one was getting it and the reason they weren't was because there was no overview. We were supposed to stick religiously to what BTSA had provided, but when I, who was training the support providers, didn't even understand what I was saying, I added the overview on my own. Then I found out that many trainers had done the same thing. So, I think this is fairly prevailing learning style that we need to consider. Having info given piece by piece with no framework to hang it on is not fun. And, even for those very analytical people who need all the details first before they get the whole, will not be harmed by hearing the brief summary first. > > One thing I do like is that he is making cognitive psychology > comprehensible. I took quite a few psychology classes and > learned this stuff, but re-reading this is developing "deep > structure." Your work with Madeleine and Bruce solidified your > deep structure long ago, Jan, so this stuff is probably > elementary to you!

No,not elementary at all! In fact,this last chapter on memory gave me the examples on beginning reading that added to what I know and make it clearer. I think the more examples we get of the principles we know, the deeper our learning is. Examples, to me, are the key to both effective learning and effective teaching. And, I honestly do not think it is possible to solidfy deep structure in teaching. There is so much too it...and, of course, the principle of "the more you know the more you know what you don't know" rears its ugly head. It is HUGE in teaching. I think one of the major problems we have in teaching, though, is that many do not have the deep structure and don't want it....they think they have teaching mastered. I just don't think that's possible. The complexity is beyond what I ever imagined. Every day I make a new connection that strengthens what I know. And, I also hear new things that I've NEVER heard of before. That's scary....how long does it take to know what you're doing in this profession?! > > What would be helpful that is lacking in this book (so far) are > concrete examples that I can apply to my daily teaching.

As I said above (before I read this part of your post) this is the problem for me. But, I've decided that perhaps Willingham didn't intend to...he is writing it from the perspective of a cognitive psychologist to give us more background information and that is his purpose. He quite likely didn't intend to translate these principles into teaching practice. And, that may be a VERY good thing. I think the tendency in teaching (not these nerds on the prof reading board, but normal teachers!) is to learn the education translation but have no understanding of the psychological principles that underlie it. That's not good because then teachers cannot develop conditional knowledge to know when these strategies are needed and when they are not. Like the teachers who have the definition of set that they see in a book of teaching strategies and use it for every lesson they teach.They don't have the understanding of the psychological concept so can't determine when it's appropriate and when it's not, when it is useful and when it can be harmful, and what should actually be in the set in order to meet the psychological needs that learners have for mental set. They have the educational recipe for set and they throw it in every lesson with no clue what it does...or how to modify it for their own situation. > > :-)Kim >

Jan 17, 2011

report post

KimK1ca What I am enjoying most about this book is the fact that Willingham is validating many practices that I have used in the past without realizing I was referencing my cognitive psychology 'tinker toys.

One of my regular volunteer parents noticed me using letter tiles for Making Words today with about four of my kinder students. She noted th...See More

Jan 18, 2011

report post