in the always right-wing New York Times, your former home town paper: "Maine Teachers Warned on Iraq War Talk" [link removed]
oh, and there's the facist, neo-conservative CNN founded by that war-monger Jane Fonda's ex husband, Ted Turner: "Maine teachers warned: Watch anti-war talk in classroom" [link removed]
Boy, that New York Times and that CNN...they'll print any right wing propaganda. A literal mouth piece of the vast right wing conspiracy.
BTW, I hear the Village Voice is actually run by Fox News.
They always stoop to name calling. Just watch Carville and Begala on Crossfire and you'll see where they get it from.
On 3/03/03, NYC wrote: > The best you can come up with is "RW wingie-dingies"? Try to > address the issues. > Who's walking away? You're the one name-calling. Try to act > like an adult. Or is that why you couldn't make it in NYC? > Can't stand the heat? I'm sensing a trend. > > On 3/03/03, Former NYC'er wrote: >> Old news pal. Read all my posts if you want to stay informed. >> >> All you RW wingie-dingies have slandered the good folks of >> Maine and now just want to walk away? >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >>
Yes, there were articles "Warning Maine Teachers...". Just like there have been reactions from just about every governor in every state regarding building/safety codes in nightclubs following the tragic fire at The Station nightclub. Simply because there has been reaction/blanket statements from government officials certainly does not imply guilt across the board in either case. Not ALL night club owners are guilty of having unsafe establishments just as ALL Maine teachers are not guilty of "anti- war rhetoric".
Once again, I have only seen "news stories" discussing the remarks of one teachers aide (NOT a certified classroom teacher mind you) and one school who called an unexcused absence just that, an unexcused absence.
You are deperately trying to spin this into a search for "evidence" that will meet some sort of criminal or legal standard. No one, not even the most vehement opponent of the "alleged" behavior, is advocating criminal prosecution of these teachers. The outrage is over cruel and uncaring treatment of children. The punishment is scorn and disgust.
The legal standard for the proper treatment of children is very high, but not as high as the social standards we expect from those entrusted with the welfare of children. This is what we call a social "duty". Duty is an expected standard of behavior. The teachers' duty is even higher in the absence of the childrens' parents who are putting their lives on the line in the service of this country.
The issue is about how the *CHILDREN* of our servicemen were treated. Or to put it in simple terms, were teachers entrusted with the welfare of those children acting in a responsible manner given their audience? To put another way, were they "nice" to them? Did they hurt their feelings? Were they mean or harsh to the children? Did they cry?
"Mean", "not nice", "hurt feelings" are obviously not adult or legal standards of behavior precisely because we are not dealing with adults but with the emotions of impressionable children.
As I said, the mere implication of the alleged behavior has been enough to light a public firestorm. The court of public opinion has already rendered its verdict. The vast majority of good and responsible teachers have a vested interest to be beyond reproach when it comes to both the substance and the perception of how they treat our children.
I find it both sad and disappointing that I have to explain this glaringly obvious duty that teachers have to the children of our servicemen. Your feeble attempt to change this into a debate over politics is irrelevant.
On 3/09/03, Mainer wrote: > I posted on the other board because this site is so full of > monomaniacal zealots who cannot see past their misguided notion that > all Maine teachers are arrogant and "abusive" toward their students. > > If you had read closely I did mention the fact that many facets dealing > with pros/cons of the war issue were presented from a variety of of > sources from around the world. I also mentioned the fact students > conducted themselves rationally (which is more that I can say for most > posters on this particular board.) and presented their views backed by > the facts pulled from "news stories" or other sources. > > Guess what else????? The students also asked me what my stand on the > issue is. I told them if they wanted to know they were welcome to ask > me in June when school was out. > > Many of the follow up posts made suggestions regarding pedagogy and how > I had worded the question regarding the issue to the students. Their > feedback was duly noted and particular suggestions will be > implemented. > > There were questions regarding the age of the students as well which I > read but I felt were there simply to peg me as one of "those abusive" > teachers. My students are eighth graders (aged 13-15). I teach US > History. The material presented and discussions that followed were > developmentally appropriate to the students and also relevant to our > state curriculum standards regarding critical thinking. > > There was one poster who attempted to impress me with her "DR PHIL" > psychobabble stating that since I posted on the issue, I must have > doubts about what I did in my classroom. That was a stupid comment in > my opinion and I told her so. Just as you refuse to see any viewpoints > from logical, thoughtful, educated teachers I refuse to > be "psychoanalyzed" by a complete stranger. Period, end of report. > > Please think about what I have said before responding with some "you're > an abusive liberal" comments, please. That is simply what this board > has become. You have no clue regarding my stand on Bush's plans, my > voting record, my political views nor my family. Simply because I am a > teacher doesn't mean I don't have family serving in the military. > > WELL SAID! Of course there are also good teachers in Maine THAT IS WHY THE ISSUE ABOUT THE MILITARY KIDS NEEDS TO BE CLEARED UP once and for all. Don't (NG colonel) stir up a hornets nest by going on The Factor of all shows which is watched by nearly 3 million people world wide, and then play it down. If there was nothing to it then set the record straight once and for all. The good people, and good teachers of Maine have to suffer because of this mess. >
Why is it necessary to defend your posts in this manner?
On 3/09/03, Mainer wrote: > I posted on the other board because this site is so full of > monomaniacal zealots who cannot see past their misguided notion that > all Maine teachers are arrogant and "abusive" toward their students. > > If you had read closely I did mention the fact that many facets dealing > with pros/cons of the war issue were presented from a variety of of > sources from around the world. I also mentioned the fact students > conducted themselves rationally (which is more that I can say for most > posters on this particular board.) and presented their views backed by > the facts pulled from "news stories" or other sources. > > Guess what else????? The students also asked me what my stand on the > issue is. I told them if they wanted to know they were welcome to ask > me in June when school was out. > > Many of the follow up posts made suggestions regarding pedagogy and how > I had worded the question regarding the issue to the students. Their > feedback was duly noted and particular suggestions will be > implemented. > > There were questions regarding the age of the students as well which I > read but I felt were there simply to peg me as one of "those abusive" > teachers. My students are eighth graders (aged 13-15). I teach US > History. The material presented and discussions that followed were > developmentally appropriate to the students and also relevant to our > state curriculum standards regarding critical thinking. > > There was one poster who attempted to impress me with her "DR PHIL" > psychobabble stating that since I posted on the issue, I must have > doubts about what I did in my classroom. That was a stupid comment in > my opinion and I told her so. Just as you refuse to see any viewpoints > from logical, thoughtful, educated teachers I refuse to > be "psychoanalyzed" by a complete stranger. Period, end of report. > > Please think about what I have said before responding with some "you're > an abusive liberal" comments, please. That is simply what this board > has become. You have no clue regarding my stand on Bush's plans, my > voting record, my political views nor my family. Simply because I am a > teacher doesn't mean I don't have family serving in the military. > > >
A soldier at the Bangor meeting said that when he took his children from school early to say goodbye, he was told it would be an unexcused absence.
Another soldier reported that when he asked a school guidance counselor to watch for changes in his child's demeanor or behavior, the counselor said, "You're in the Army, aren't you? Your child should be able to deal with it."
Another parent said that when she told the school principal that her child had been teased by other children who said her father could be killed in the war, she was told there was nothing school officials could do because the other children were right and what the child's father was doing was wrong.
You asked for proof of the incidents and it was presented to you. You did not dispute this.
You went on to post other parts of the story regarding the public reaction to the incidents and then asked for an apology.
You neglected to address your original contention that there was "no proof" or all hearsay.
On 3/04/03, Former NYC'er wrote: > Defend what you posted as impied proof of "harassment"? > > What you poated in part and without and cite was in fact > PART of an AP wire story which you may or may not have read > in whole. > > The headline and main thrust of the news repot was: > > "Guard blames national media for teacher flap" > > It states in part ".......... the head of the Maine Army > National Guard said.Maj. Gen. Joseph Tinkham said national > media figures, including conservative radio talk show host > Rush Limbaugh and television commentator Bill O'Reilly, > exaggerated the extent and nature of the problem. He also > took issue with a newspaper editorial that criticized the > Guard for not making public the details of the reported > incidents." > > Now I suggest you read the whole report and get back with an > apology to the good teachers of Maine. > > Below are the cites you can check: > > > [link removed].
***** A soldier at the Bangor meeting said that when he took his children from school early to say goodbye, he was told it would be an unexcused absence. *****
My response has nothing to do with the issue at hand but instead focuses on this example, which I believe to be a spurious one.
Sure, there may (or many not) be stuff going on, but this doesn't give an indication either way.
There are a number of schools that have very strict attendance rules. I have been at schools where the only "excused" absences were those signed by a doctor, for a court date, etc.
(Note, I don't necessarily agree with this).
I would also wonder who the solider spoke to. Sometimes, you talk to one person and you get the stock, canned answer, and you get an administrator who sees reason.
Hi There, Would love any heads up oppotunities for elementary teaching in Maine..I'd be interested in regular or special education... Also, any of you get a special education position before you had your full degree..I'm currently working on my masters in special ed at the USM, Gorham. Will schools hire me, just because I am working on my masters..or do they usually hire people who have had some experience in Special education as an ed tech and can relate some of the experience to the job..Just not sure what to say at the interviews to convince them that they should hire me...except that I've been working on my masters degree...I don't feel like I have a specialty at this point...but I can easily research topics that I feel I'll need for the job and become prepared that way... any help and/or tips would be appreciated..thanks so much, Kelly
I know that the state of Maine hopes this thing will just go away, BUT the fact is that it happened, and until the Teachers admit (intentionally inflicting emotional distress on children.)" to ALL concerned. This will never be put to bed and it is just another one of those things that goes on in Maine that the public just needs to know about. I for one haven't seen one Teacher/Professional Step up to the plate out of the 16 reported and documented cases and admit culpability. If they don't have enough Honor, Integrity, and professionalism to own up to what they have done then what could they have to offer our children as a Teacher? How could you trust them with your children?
Just how would you feel if that was your child(ren) and you were the service member? The state of Maine has a big problem with the military and they just don't get it, That Military personnel are the reason that we have the rights we have. The State of Maine has pissed on the graves of all that have fallen again. And violated the Veterans that returned home. And they are looking to sweep it under the carpet once again. I think the Governor has shown us what he is made of and where he stands. I feel sorry for you all in Maine. He too wants to cover it up and hide the truth. Just get as far away from it and bury it attitude.
Have you all have forgotten about Little Logan Marr already, the Little Girl that gave her all in the fight for reform of the DHS. This little 5yr old suffered a horrible death at the hands of a State employee. One that (shocks the conscience) of every human. And this has been covered up from the beginning. That was just another thing that the State of Maine wants to go away. But the fact is Logan is Dead, and was killed at the hands of state employees/professionals. I have not seen all involved in this case brought to Justice in Maine yet.
If someone does not like it here in the United States you have the right to speak out, but do not forget who gave you that right. But for GODS sake don't take it out on Children. Be an adult and take it through proper channels. It isn't and should never be a concern of children. It is real easy to pick on children when you're an adult. But that is a person with no Honor, Integrity, and professionalism.
I have lived the hate of the Military by the State of Maine through the Department of Human Services and the Judiciary there in Maine. I have been told that all military personnel are considered dangerous and a threat. The State police and the DHS displayed this to my family. It has cost us everything that we had to defend ourselves over the last two years. I know first hand how the state wants to sweep their mistakes under the carpet. I have lived it and still do. I will forever tell people that Maine is not a place to visit or live.
I ask you to please to keep this alive and let them know this behavior out of state employees will not be tolerated.
And just note to the Teachers: How does it feel to be the accused, because people {perceive or presume} something that there are no facts to go on other than someone said. Just remember that the next time you open your mouth. Get your Facts straight first.
The National Guard/military not only defend our country, our borders, allies they also render assistance to areas within our country. Maine has seen its share of state of emergency although some have forgotten who showed up to help. This incident has made me rethink the role of our military. I now feel it is a shame the people who enlist to protect our freedoms do not have a choice who they protect at home or abroad.
i'm seeking a teacher to interview about the state education department's bias toward and institutionalized abuse of children of military personnel. please e-mail me if you'd like to have a voice in this article.
Any better reason not to cut education than the fact our representatives both state and federal can't balance a budget. A failing economy favors terrorism. Check out taxpayer advocate sites, [link removed]
On 3/07/03, Scott D. Tisthammer wrote: > Any better reason not to cut education than the fact > our representatives both state and federal can't balance a > budget. A failing economy favors terrorism.> Scott D. Tisthammer > [email removed]]
That's completely absurd.
What you're saying is that because state, local and federal governments can't manage their money and spend far too much on pork means that we should give them MORE money to spend recklessly.
I'd much prefer to have MY money where I control how it is allocated to my child's education.
How is that working ...See MoreOn 3/10/03, That's ridiculous! wrote: > On 3/07/03, Scott D. Tisthammer wrote: >> Any better reason not to cut education than the fact >> our representatives both state and federal can't balance a >> budget. A failing economy favors terrorism.> Scott D. > Tisthammer >> [email removed]].
How is that working out for you now rediculous
How about for teachers
The. People had plenty of opportunities butdidnt take up the responssbility that hoes with being Americans, same they teach kids in schools where teachers are now replaced with computers
Get a clue, think outside the box, with the IT teachers are being replaced we can also replace politicians responsible for all our problem
I am looking for some one to send my class a postcard from your state. We have one from all but just a few states. We would like to have one from every state . Thank you in advaced for any help . For address to send postcard to please e mail me. If you send my class one we will send you one in return. Thank you , Ms Cathy
On 3/08/03, Cathy wrote: > I am looking for some one to send my class a postcard from > your state. We have one from all but just a few states. We > would like to have one from every state . Thank you in > advaced for any help . For address to send postcard to > please e mail me. If you send my class one we will send > you one in return. Thank you , Ms Cathy
A teacher were to have a bumper sticker on his or her car which read: "War with Iraq. NO!" OR one which read "Let's kick Iraqi a$$"." Would said teacher be required to remove said bumper sticker? Would the teacher be able to park on school property where students might be able to see the bumper sticker? Where does a teacher's own civil rights end and begin?
What if I live in the same small town where I teach and I choose to post a huge political campaign sign in my yard (which I did during the last election mind you) where the world can see it including my literate students? What if they asked me about said sign? Even if I refuse to discuss it on school property (which I do) the students (because they are literate and thoughtful) might know exactly where I stand on the war issue and our esteemed president. What then? Must I no longer participate in the political process like other Americans so I don't taint my students with my opinion?
Typical junk logic. The ends do not justify the means. You don't have the right to abuse children simply becuase you don't agree with a POSSIBLE war. Every citizen has restraints on their freedom of speech w.r.t. their profession. You can't walk into a company and say you disagree with the way the company is being run w/o risking being fired. You won't be jailed but you can be fired. Freedom of speech has consequences and you have to be willing to accept them.
Funny how people like you always blame the president for the situation as if Saddam has not been given every chance in the world to come clean and comply with the terms of his SURRENDER agreement and other UN resolutions.
Your view of history is also dead wrong. What country were you living in when Clinton attacked Kosovo, Bosnia and Iraq? Ever hear of Deseert Fox?
You also clearly do not understand the concept of self defense. If we knew UBL was going to launch 911 would we have been justified attacking Afghanastan? Yes we would. The situation now is the same. With WMDs we can't afford to absorb the first blow becuase it could involved hundreds of thousands of dead Americans. Then, people like you would call for the President to be impeeched for not acting sooner.
On 3/09/03, Georgia Hedrick wrote: > What if...teachers could only teach what was in a scripted > plan to teach? What if...teachers were told just how to > grade each child? What if...it was considered unpatriotic to > discuss points of view other than what the President says is > is patriotic? What if...our texts were written in such a > manner that only one point of view was promoted? > > There are so many scarey 'what-ifs' involved in putting the > clamp on free and open discussions. > > What is with Maine anyway? I am from Nevada. My husband > served with the SSN during the VietNam era. He is proud of > his service. However, he is not proud of what this President > is doing. We are invading another country. We haven't done > that since we invaded Indian country in the 19th century and > then we invaded Mexico. We took away from those First > Americans their land, and we fought Mexico, and bought NV, > CA, AZ, UT, and NM from Mexico after that war for $15 > million. This was unethical back then and someone has to > teach that. It is always unethical to invade another > country. I realize that military personnel have to obey > orders, but someone has to teach the new generation that this > country is regressing into its old ways. > If not the teachers, then who is left to tell the truth? > > And, as to the person who said that 7 year olds just don't > make 'this stuff up' hasn't been around 7 year olds for > long. Seven year olds make up stuff all the time, based on > their fears, and hopes, and longings, and wishes. It is how > those little people cope with reality. It is how they put > some control in their life. It is normal. > > But some of the antagonisms and antipathies on this board are > sad! I had no idea that the Military was at loggerheads with > the people of Maine. I really, really feel sad for the > military that they have to go into a situation that is so > loaded with reprecussions. They have to obey. That's were > little kids just don't get it. They are taught that fighting > is wrong except in self-defense and yet, off go their parents > to fight--not to defend, but to attack. Sad. Scarey. gh
The bottom line is: get > mad at the people who voted for Bush which was the majority.
The majority did NOT vote for Bush. The electoral college & the Supreme Court voted for Bush. If you are going to talk politics please understand how the process is supposed to work. Whether it did or not is moot.
Back to the Georgia Jackalope discussion. If you think teaching is only facts you have forgotten Socrates. Not to mention that you have forgotten history in your list. Both History and Literature are rooted in debates of points of view. Part of the aim of education is to get children thinking for themselves, not just parrotting back what their teacher OR their parents say.
Further, if you think 7 year olds don't lie, consider the myriad multiple-sexual abuse cases in the 80s. Many of those convictions have since been overturned as it has been discovered that children can easily be influenced into giving the answers they think the adult is looking for.
But it is less the media that has blown this out of proportion as it is a bunch of people, many of whom are neither military nor teachers, looking for another reason to be angered at so-called liberals. It is those people who take what is most likely an isolated incident and paint every teacher in Maine and across the country with the same broad brush.
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They always stoop to name calling. Just watch Carville and Begala
on Crossfire and you'll see where they get it from.
On 3/03/03, NYC wrote:
> The best you can come up with is "RW wingie-dingies"? Try to
> address the issues.
> Who's walking away? You're the one name-calling. Try to act ...See More