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Wisconsin Teachers Chatboard

Our students do less than 24th on international tests

by Ken

Feb 21, 2011

No offense to teachers, but given the statistics from testing our kids against those of countries that pay their teachers less and spend less on schools, you're not doing a great job for the most part.

Your unions spent a great deal of money trying to defeat Walker and failed.

Someone once said, "Elections have consequences!" and they do.

After all this is worked out, the unions involved might want to seem a little less partisan and put more of an "It really IS all about the children" face on. If they had done so before the election, maybe Walker would have been defeated.

He's looking at tossing a boatload of the poor and elderly off Wisconsin Medicaid too, but none of the teachers and union folk I see on the tube mention it...

...it's not important compared to things like having to put your money into your healthcare and retirement, I guess.

Sorry to sound so harsh, but a lot of people other than teachers and government employees a...See More

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cole On 2/21/11, Ken wrote: > No offense to teachers, but given the statistics from > testing our kids against those of countries that pay their > teachers less and spend less on schools, you're not doing a > great job for the most part.

There are just so many factors that you aren't considering. These teacher in other countries do...See MoreOn 2/21/11, Ken wrote: > No offense to teachers, but given the statistics from > testing our kids against those of countries that pay their > teachers less and spend less on schools, you're not doing a > great job for the most part.

There are just so many factors that you aren't considering. These teacher in other countries don't pay a dime for health care. In Singapore, one of the best education systems in the world, they offer the top 10% of high school graduates a free education and a paid internship. They even get a stipend for going to school (whereas our teachers pay thousands to intern). In many of those countries college costs less, day care costs less. So even though they might get paid less, they don't pay as much for major services that cost us so much here. So perhaps they don't need as much money. And while it looks like they make less than us, they actually get paid more than doctors in Singapore. The value of our money isn't relative.

And I take issue with "We're not doing a good job for the most part". Should we also say the kids who are doing poorly have parents who aren't doing a good job for the most part? For instance, I have noticed at parent teacher conferences that almost every kid who is doing well has parents who show up. Almost every kid whose doing poorly - well let's say I don't know what their parents look like. And this has been true for years and years.

So please don't blame the education problem solely on the teachers. There are many factors that play into this problem. The entire system is failing our kids. A system made up of a an ignorant populace, a crap tax system, superintendents and principals that don't ever go into classrooms to give feedback to their teachers, parents who either don't care or are too busy, devastating poverty, outdated tools, large shortages of supplies like books...

When you read something, maybe you can think, "What isn't here? What factors aren't mentioned in this list or chart?" Instead of just taking things at face value. It's usually a lot more complicated than one news article, one list or one pie chart can possibly communicate.

Feb 21, 2011

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Ken On 2/21/11, cole wrote:

> So please don't blame the education problem solely on the > teachers. There are many factors that play into this problem. > The entire system is failing our kids. A system made up of a > an ignorant populace, a crap tax system, superintendents and > principals that don't ever go into classrooms to ...See More

Feb 21, 2011

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attitudes are different too, Facts of whic you may not be aware:

In Asia students want to achieve to avoid family shame. In America D is good enough, at least it's not an F.

In Europe education and Teachers are respected, because it's not free for all.

In many countries "free" education stops at grade 6 any comparison of secondary scores are from ...See MoreFacts of whic you may not be aware:

In Asia students want to achieve to avoid family shame. In America D is good enough, at least it's not an F.

In Europe education and Teachers are respected, because it's not free for all.

In many countries "free" education stops at grade 6 any comparison of secondary scores are from students and parents who value education enough to sacrifice to pay for it.

In many school tracking is started early, if you're not smart you get the "vocational track" and "general education" ends early.

Many countries do not educate mentally handicapped students, e.g. those with emotional or physical disabilities. No IEP or 504s there.

In many countries "school aged parents" are not provided for or allowed to continue their education until after the infant is born.

EVEN IN OUR OWN STATE TESTS students, who have IEP or 504s that say "They not required to learn ALL the facts", or ARE EVEN EXPECTED TO LEARN ANYTHING (school is "socializing" experience for them) are expected to score the same as a fully functional student. Which since they only had to learn part of the knowledge is impossible.

On 2/21/11, Keep in mind wrote: > our country tests ALL children and ALL of our results get > added into this data- this is not true of other countries, > thus they test a very different population of kids. This > point of yours is a common argument, but if one would look > into the circumstances more, one would see the data > comparisons are flawed. > > On 2/21/11, Ken wrote: >> No offense to teachers, but given the statistics from >> testing our kids against those of countries that pay their >> teachers less and spend less on schools, you're not doing a >> great job for the most part. >> >> Your unions spent a great deal of money trying to defeat >> Walker and failed. >> >> Someone once said, "Elections have consequences!" and they do. >> >> After all this is worked out, the unions involved might want >> to seem a little less partisan and put more of an "It really >> IS all about the children" face on. If they had done so >> before the election, maybe Walker would have been defeated. >> >> He's looking at tossing a boatload of the poor and elderly >> off Wisconsin Medicaid too, but none of the teachers and >> union folk I see on the tube mention it... >> >> ...it's not important compared to things like having to put >> your money into your healthcare and retirement, I guess. >> >> Sorry to sound so harsh, but a lot of people other than >> teachers and government employees are going to suffer under >> Walkers administration. Many much worse than you are. >> >> But you seem too self-centered to notice that.

Feb 22, 2011

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cole Actually I said, "Please don't blame the problem 'SOLEY' on the teachers'. Meaning they have some responsibility, but shouldn't bare the entire burden of blame. I didn't get into specifics - I feel like enough people talking on this board hate teachers already. I am discouraged as a teacher. It's not easy to love your kids and your job this much an...See More

Feb 22, 2011

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Because.. Why?

I) We have no common curricula; we expect all teachers to decide for themselves what to teach.

The lucky ones get a good texts and are encouraged to use it to dictate content. Many teachers have unusable textbooks-- the standard book for foreign languages in many places teaches students every verb connected to flying (take ...See MoreWhy?

I) We have no common curricula; we expect all teachers to decide for themselves what to teach.

The lucky ones get a good texts and are encouraged to use it to dictate content. Many teachers have unusable textbooks-- the standard book for foreign languages in many places teaches students every verb connected to flying (take off, land, ticket counter, etc.) but no colors, numbers or conjugation of "to be" in Spanish/French I. So they make up content; they might use a storytelling method to get kids talking but not to memorize anything, they might do a lot of culture-- from legitimate cultural information to making pinatas for 14 days-- or they might be grammar heavy/conversation light.

Other get textbooks too massive to cover everything; every teacher skips and chooses what to teach.. some do mostly textbook content and others do mostly non textbook content and just dip into the book from time to time.

Oh, but every state has standards-- all teachers meet them or get fired. So there is in fact a curriculum in place everywhere. That's just a myth..the standards aren't a curriculum; they are vague statements of idealized learning goals with no specifics. Many teachers even state that the standards are to know the goals of the class but not to dictate content. They are so vague that proving they have been met or not is impossible.

So what? Every second grader goes to their teacher knowing totally different things. Some can work with fractions and others have never heard of a fraction; some know the name of the first president and others don't get why their answer of "Obama" makes their peers giggle. This gap gets more and more pronounced as kids move through school.. and our kids get further and further behind.

II) We do in fact need better teachers. In Finland only the top 10% of college graduates can become teachers, but here many teachers are from the bottom third of their graduating class. DUH. What teachers earn is less than what you can learn with many blue collar jobs requiring maybe a two year degree-- but high school teaching is the most stressful job in America. In the school I STed in students had no textbooks and we had no access to photocopies. There was no lounge-- it was needed for classroom space-- and no way to show videos. We wrote up students and had no choice but to assume they made into in in school detention. Good teachers are less willing to put up with the crap for the salary, so they move on.

There is a cycle.. the less support/help teachers get the less likely talented people are to go into or stay in teaching; the less well prepared our teachers are, the less respect they get. When teachers lack respect, governments are willing to cut their supplies, pensions, etc. because "they aren't getting the job done anyway". Parents are also less likely to support teachers because "they aren't teaching my kids well".

III) In countries with better educational systems than ours, the whole culture simply does not tolerate the kind of behavior we see in our classrooms. I've been left notes calling me a total f--king b-tch and the principal ignored it. That would not happen in countries where teachers and education are respected. (By the way, I've faced behavior from rich spoiled students in Mexico that was far worse than most teachers deal with here.)

IV) We focus on progressive ideas of learning to learn, cooperative teamwork, making sure students are "discovering" new facts for themselves, etc. rather than content. This philosophy reigns supreme in all education classes. To be fair, the philosophy of education we have does have some advantages. I taught English to non native speakers here and Asians wrote "You make us think for ourselves too much" several times. But it means our students aren't learning as much content as other countries since more time is spent on students "discovery process" and less time is spent teaching them content.

2/21/11, Ken wrote: > No offense to teachers, but given the statistics from > testing our kids against those of countries that pay their > teachers less and spend less on schools, you're not doing a > great job for the most part. > > Your unions spent a great deal of money trying to defeat > Walker and failed. > > Someone once said, "Elections have consequences!" and they do. > > After all this is worked out, the unions involved might want > to seem a little less partisan and put more of an "It really > IS all about the children" face on. If they had done so > before the election, maybe Walker would have been defeated. > > He's looking at tossing a boatload of the poor and elderly > off Wisconsin Medicaid too, but none of the teachers and > union folk I see on the tube mention it... > > ...it's not important compared to things like having to put > your money into your healthcare and retirement, I guess. > > Sorry to sound so harsh, but a lot of people other than > teachers and government employees are going to suffer under > Walkers administration. Many much worse than you are. > > But you seem too self-centered to notice that.

Feb 22, 2011

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