A few textbook related issues…and some venting

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College Professors Chatboard

A few textbook related issues...and some venting

by bernoulli

Apr 12, 2010

I started this thread to exchange thoughts and ideas related to textbooks. Please feel free to add your input and experiences.

There is a movement on my campus to reduce the cost of textbooks various ways. It is receiving lip-service from the Provost in the form of email messages asking faculty to consider less expensive options.

I do agree that faculty should take extra care to: 1. Choose textbooks that are well-written, helpful, and relevent. 2. Use the textbook enough to justify the expense. 3. Avoid using ancillary items or bundles unless they are essential (some statistics books bundle software that is not useful and it takes students out of the used book market). 4. When more than one book will do, choose the less expensive option. 5. If one textbook can be found that can be used for two or more courses in a sequence then go with that. My department teaches a two course statistics sequence that used one textbook. We also use one writing guide in all our classes ...See More

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Professor Hardy Parkerson, J.D. Dear Dr. Bernoulli,

Nice seeing your post here! I am very interested in the subject of your post, although I want to think your presentation over a bit. No doubt about it: university textbooks are too expensive. At a state university I am familiar with, the professors write their own paperback textbooks and the University charges the stud...See MoreDear Dr. Bernoulli,

Nice seeing your post here! I am very interested in the subject of your post, although I want to think your presentation over a bit. No doubt about it: university textbooks are too expensive. At a state university I am familiar with, the professors write their own paperback textbooks and the University charges the students as much as $95.00, to $100.00, each--if not more--for such volumes; and then the state government and its subdivisions charge an additional sales tax of nine-percent. It's a scandal...at least as I see it! It's a financial conflict-of-interest for a professor to force the students to buy his or her own textbook off of the sale of which he or she makes a profit; and the same thing for the University's Management. Unfortunately, higher education has gotten to be all about money: "Pay your fees, get your degrees!", they say in their own way. Of course, a bit of hyperbole here; but, hey! A lot of truth too. On a good note, I know of one University that gives its students free textbooks that have literally been "thrown away" by a taxpayer- paid-for university only a very few years-- and in some cases months--after their original publication dates; so that--my gues is--they can make the students pay at least the Univer- sity--it owns the Bookstore where they are sold for a profit--increased and inflated prices for--for all practical purposes--the same textbooks, but with a later publication dates.

There is more to it all than this--and to what you say in your post--but this is something to think about. What needs to be done is for all of these universities to make a deal with Harvard, Tulane and Yale to have their professors write the textbooks and agree to sell them at reasonable prices; and, further, neither the universities, nor the professors who choose and assign the textbooks for the courses and students, should be allowed to profit from the sale of the textbooks that they assign for the courses; for for them to do so constitutes a financial conflict-of-interest. So-called accrediting organizations should not allow universities that they accredit to have such financial conflicts- of-interest.

Again, there is more to it all than this, but this is something to think about.

Sincerely,

Hardy Parkerson, J.D. Former Asst. Professor, L.S.U. in Baton Rouge Retired Lawyer in Exile Naples, Italy, and Lake Charles

> > > > On 4/12/10, bernoulli wrote: >> I started this thread to exchange thoughts and ideas related >> to textbooks. Please feel free to add your input and >> experiences. >> >> There is a movement on my campus to reduce the cost of >> textbooks various ways. It is receiving lip-service from the >> Provost in the form of email messages asking faculty to >> consider less expensive options. >> >> I do agree that faculty should take extra care to: >> 1. Choose textbooks that are well-written, helpful, and >> relevent. >> 2. Use the textbook enough to justify the expense. >> 3. Avoid using ancillary items or bundles unless they are >> essential (some statistics books bundle software that is not >> useful and it takes students out of the used book market). >> 4. When more than one book will do, choose the less >> expensive option. >> 5. If one textbook can be found that can be used for two or >> more courses in a sequence then go with that. My department >> teaches a two course statistics sequence that used one >> textbook. We also use one writing guide in all our classes >> that require reports--starting with our First-Year >> Experience (FYE) course. >> >> However, have some concerns about other issues. My >> overarching concerns are that: (1) These suggestions about >> lowering book costs are promoting "surface learning" in >> place of "deep learning", and (2) students don't want to >> read and we don't want to make them do anything > uncomfortable. >> >> Here are some the issues from our Provost and others: >> >> 1. Selling books - I believe strongly in keeping most of >> your textbooks as resources, references, or tools of your >> profession. I kept most of my books from college and regret >> the ones I sold. A mechanic uses wrenches, a doctor uses a >> stethoscope, and so my engineering students should consider >> their books as their tools of the profession along with >> calculators, software and computers. >> >> 2. A push to use on-line texts is another promotion of >> surface learning. You can't write in a computer book, carry >> it around, keep it, etc. >> >> 3. Eliminating textbooks - Another surface learning >> promotion..."Just tell me what you want me to know and I >> will cram it in for the test"....(to be forgotten in a >> week). In my 20+ years of teaching I tried a few classes >> without a textbook and the students suffered. Another >> version of this idea is using PowerPoint notes pages in lieu >> of a textbook. I use PowerPoint notes in several classes I >> teach, but not instead of a textbook. >> >> 4. Book Rental - See my comments about selling books...same >> thing. >> >> 5. Use the internet - IMHO, that is part of the problem. A >> student told me once he couldn't do an assignment because he >> "Googled it and nothing come up." I about flipped out. >> >> I will admit that I resent the frequency at which some >> publishers come out with new editions. However, I think >> textbooks are one of the best teaching tools we have if we >> use them wisely. I sometimes post reading notes telling the >> students which sections are well written and supplementing >> poorly written points. Some students benefit from >> illustrations, some from examples, some from explanations, >> some from the ability to review. >> >> I had an interesting thing happen this week. Some of my >> students ordered bootlegged versions of the textbook from >> overseas. A lot of these copyright violators are from China >> and Singapore. Anyway, the homework problems are all out of >> order or missing so the students are contacting me about >> what to do!!! They seem to think that if they buy a >> bootlegged book with the wrong problems I should help them >> sort it out!! >> >> Lately on the first day of class I give the reasoning behind >> the book selected for the class and the benefits for keeping >> it in their library. Also, I have the ability to email the >> class about 3 weeks before the first class meeting so I send >> them a message announcing what the texts are so they can >> shop around. Students can usually get good used textbooks at >> reasonable prices. >> >> Here is another thing I just remembered: In my doctoral >> program the two best classes I had were the ones where the >> instructor had us buy the most books and do the most >> reading. She also started each class with student-led >> discussions over the material. >> >> OK. I feel better now.

Apr 13, 2010

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bernoulli Thanks for the response!

I personally do not consider it a conflict-of-interest to require students to buy a textbook authored by the instructor. Most textbooks are created by instructors who are passionate about what they are teaching and who feel they can write a better textbook than what is on the market. I know lots of textbook authors...See MoreThanks for the response!

I personally do not consider it a conflict-of-interest to require students to buy a textbook authored by the instructor. Most textbooks are created by instructors who are passionate about what they are teaching and who feel they can write a better textbook than what is on the market. I know lots of textbook authors and, believe, me, they don't do it for the money. Only a small percentage make any decent money from it. I had dinner with a colleague last night who has written four books in his discipline. He said he has made $30,000 total from the four books.

I still suspect a big issue is that many students don't really plan to read and study their textbooks anyway, so they have no value in their personal economy. Surface learners don't have time to read books.

On 4/13/10, Professor Hardy Parkerson, J.D. wrote: > > > Dear Dr. Bernoulli, > > Nice seeing your post here! I am > very interested in the subject of your > post, although I want to think your > presentation over a bit. No doubt about > it: university textbooks are too expensive. > At a state university I am familiar with, > the professors write their own paperback > textbooks and the University charges the > students as much as $95.00, to $100.00, > each--if not more--for such volumes; and > then the state government and its subdivisions > charge an additional sales tax of nine-percent. > It's a scandal...at least as I see it! It's > a financial conflict-of-interest for a > professor to force the students to buy his > or her own textbook off of the sale of which > he or she makes a profit; and the same thing > for the University's Management. Unfortunately, > higher education has gotten to be all about > money: "Pay your fees, get your degrees!", > they say in their own way. Of course, a bit of > hyperbole here; but, hey! A lot of truth too. > On a good note, I know of one University that > gives its students free textbooks that have > literally been "thrown away" by a taxpayer- > paid-for university only a very few years-- > and in some cases months--after their original > publication dates; so that--my gues is--they > can make the students pay at least the Univer- > sity--it owns the Bookstore where they are sold > for a profit--increased and inflated prices > for--for all practical purposes--the same > textbooks, but with a later publication dates. > > There is more to it all than this--and to what > you say in your post--but this is something > to think about. What needs to be done is for > all of these universities to make a deal with > Harvard, Tulane and Yale to have their professors > write the textbooks and agree to sell > them at reasonable prices; and, further, neither > the universities, nor the professors who choose and > assign the textbooks for the courses and students, > should be allowed to profit from the sale > of the textbooks that they assign for the courses; > for for them to do so constitutes a financial > conflict-of-interest. So-called accrediting > organizations should not allow universities that > they accredit to have such financial conflicts- > of-interest. > > Again, there is more to it all than this, but > this is something to think about. > > Sincerely, > > Hardy Parkerson, J.D. > Former Asst. Professor, L.S.U. in Baton Rouge > Retired Lawyer in Exile > Naples, Italy, and Lake Charles > > >> >> >> >> On 4/12/10, bernoulli wrote: >>> I started this thread to exchange thoughts and ideas related >>> to textbooks. Please feel free to add your input and >>> experiences. >>> >>> There is a movement on my campus to reduce the cost of >>> textbooks various ways. It is receiving lip-service from the >>> Provost in the form of email messages asking faculty to >>> consider less expensive options. >>> >>> I do agree that faculty should take extra care to: >>> 1. Choose textbooks that are well-written, helpful, and >>> relevent. >>> 2. Use the textbook enough to justify the expense. >>> 3. Avoid using ancillary items or bundles unless they are >>> essential (some statistics books bundle software that is not >>> useful and it takes students out of the used book market). >>> 4. When more than one book will do, choose the less >>> expensive option. >>> 5. If one textbook can be found that can be used for two or >>> more courses in a sequence then go with that. My department >>> teaches a two course statistics sequence that used one >>> textbook. We also use one writing guide in all our classes >>> that require reports--starting with our First-Year >>> Experience (FYE) course. >>> >>> However, have some concerns about other issues. My >>> overarching concerns are that: (1) These suggestions about >>> lowering book costs are promoting "surface learning" in >>> place of "deep learning", and (2) students don't want to >>> read and we don't want to make them do anything >> uncomfortable. >>> >>> Here are some the issues from our Provost and others: >>> >>> 1. Selling books - I believe strongly in keeping most of >>> your textbooks as resources, references, or tools of your >>> profession. I kept most of my books from college and regret >>> the ones I sold. A mechanic uses wrenches, a doctor uses a >>> stethoscope, and so my engineering students should consider >>> their books as their tools of the profession along with >>> calculators, software and computers. >>> >>> 2. A push to use on-line texts is another promotion of >>> surface learning. You can't write in a computer book, carry >>> it around, keep it, etc. >>> >>> 3. Eliminating textbooks - Another surface learning >>> promotion..."Just tell me what you want me to know and I >>> will cram it in for the test"....(to be forgotten in a >>> week). In my 20+ years of teaching I tried a few classes >>> without a textbook and the students suffered. Another >>> version of this idea is using PowerPoint notes pages in lieu >>> of a textbook. I use PowerPoint notes in several classes I >>> teach, but not instead of a textbook. >>> >>> 4. Book Rental - See my comments about selling books...same >>> thing. >>> >>> 5. Use the internet - IMHO, that is part of the problem. A >>> student told me once he couldn't do an assignment because he >>> "Googled it and nothing come up." I about flipped out. >>> >>> I will admit that I resent the frequency at which some >>> publishers come out with new editions. However, I think >>> textbooks are one of the best teaching tools we have if we >>> use them wisely. I sometimes post reading notes telling the >>> students which sections are well written and supplementing >>> poorly written points. Some students benefit from >>> illustrations, some from examples, some from explanations, >>> some from the ability to review. >>> >>> I had an interesting thing happen this week. Some of my >>> students ordered bootlegged versions of the textbook from >>> overseas. A lot of these copyright violators are from China >>> and Singapore. Anyway, the homework problems are all out of >>> order or missing so the students are contacting me about >>> what to do!!! They seem to think that if they buy a >>> bootlegged book with the wrong problems I should help them >>> sort it out!! >>> >>> Lately on the first day of class I give the reasoning behind >>> the book selected for the class and the benefits for keeping >>> it in their library. Also, I have the ability to email the >>> class about 3 weeks before the first class meeting so I send >>> them a message announcing what the texts are so they can >>> shop around. Students can usually get good used textbooks at >>> reasonable prices. >>> >>> Here is another thing I just remembered: In my doctoral >>> program the two best classes I had were the ones where the >>> instructor had us buy the most books and do the most >>> reading. She also started each class with student-led >>> discussions over the material. >>> >>> OK. I feel better now.

Apr 18, 2010

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adding a vent of my own I teach science and cannot convince the students to buy the book. I've given up that particular fight and keep reminding them it is their loss that they don't get the in-depth information. Just a few years ago, when I started teaching at the college level, I was surprised at how my students simply expected to get an A. That attitude has changed a b...See MoreI teach science and cannot convince the students to buy the book. I've given up that particular fight and keep reminding them it is their loss that they don't get the in-depth information. Just a few years ago, when I started teaching at the college level, I was surprised at how my students simply expected to get an A. That attitude has changed a bit to one of simply wanting the C in order to transfer credit. Therefore, reading is completely unimportant to them. Good enough is good enough for them.

Yes, I still have my hard workers and those who need scholarships who work hard and use the book to their advantage, but it sure seems to be the exception rather than the rule.

Here's my real vent. The students are renting lab manuals and that makes me crazy! I tell them over and over again that I will not accept photocopied lab book pages and then they whine that they cannot re-sell the book when I have them rip out pages and hand them in. We have the same conversation every other week. It's a LAB book, people, suck it up and chalk it up as an educational expense. Grrrrr!

As for your original post, Bernoulli, I'm glad you brought it up. On the one hand, it makes me sick how expensive text books are these days and I feel sorry about that particular expense, especially when some instructors rarely use the book. It teaches the students that books are superfluous and they become cynical about the expense.

As much as I would like to agree with your attitude that books are tools to be used, I cannot. I saved every single book from college and I think I used 3 of them in 20 years. I finally gave them all away, and have not regretted it. In all honesty, I get great information from the Internet and it is easier and faster to use than running to my bookshelves all of the time. I do keep my lecture notes from college (well, from grad school) and do refer to those occasionally. Anyway, even if I did use my books faithfully, my students would never think that would apply to them.

So, what to do? I only have control over what goes on within my own classroom. I can choose to go hardline and utilize reading assignments as I see fit, or I can follow the trend and encourage my students to read the text, yet not rely upon it as a make-or-break issue.

May 6, 2010

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bernoulli Thanks for the response!

I believe that students are responding to the culture created by the institutions they attend(ed). An excellent read on this subject is: Student Success in College: Creating Conditions that Matter, George D. Kuh, et al, Jossey-Bass (2005), ISBN: 0787979147

The findings in this book are based on a study of ...See MoreThanks for the response!

I believe that students are responding to the culture created by the institutions they attend(ed). An excellent read on this subject is: Student Success in College: Creating Conditions that Matter, George D. Kuh, et al, Jossey-Bass (2005), ISBN: 0787979147

The findings in this book are based on a study of 20 schools that stood out from among 700 institutions nationwide that had participated in the National Survey of Student Engagement (NSSE). This study was part of DEEP (Documenting Educational Effectiveness Project). These schools were not of any particular type and varied from large to small, public to private, and secular to religious. This book explores the common elements of DEEP schools and is a great read for anyone developing criteria for prioritization purposes. A well researched book.

With respect to this topic, the researchers found that at the DEEP schools there was a culture of students preparing (e.g. reading) before coming to class and the instructor's lectures and activities scaffolding off of the material. From what I see, my university system is doing everything it can to promote surface learning and just checking courses off of curriculum lists.

Outcomes assessment is supposed to be focusing on student learning. Done right it works. But in a surface learning culture it is just bean counting and science fiction.

I apologize for my cynicism...I spent all morning last Thursday at an accreditation preparation retreat and am still trying to recuperate.

With respect to keeping books: I still use books and notes from graduate school. I also use references and excerpts from my dissertation research 10 years ago. I consider them part of my professional library.

On 5/06/10, adding a vent of my own wrote: > I teach science and cannot convince the students to buy the book. > I've given up that particular fight and keep reminding them it is > their loss that they don't get the in-depth information. > Just a few years ago, when I started teaching at the college level, I > was surprised at how my students simply expected to get an A. > That attitude has changed a bit to one of simply wanting the C in > order to transfer credit. Therefore, reading is completely > unimportant to them. Good enough is good enough for them. > > Yes, I still have my hard workers and those who need scholarships who > work hard and use the book to their advantage, but it sure seems to be > the exception rather than the rule. > > Here's my real vent. > The students are renting lab manuals and that makes me crazy! > I tell them over and over again that I will not accept photocopied lab > book pages and then they whine that they cannot re-sell the book when > I have them rip out pages and hand them in. We have the same > conversation every other week. > It's a LAB book, people, suck it up and chalk it up as an educational > expense. Grrrrr! > > As for your original post, Bernoulli, I'm glad you brought it up. > On the one hand, it makes me sick how expensive text books are these > days and I feel sorry about that particular expense, especially when > some instructors rarely use the book. It teaches the students that > books are superfluous and they become cynical about the expense. > > As much as I would like to agree with your attitude that books are > tools to be used, I cannot. I saved every single book from college > and I think I used 3 of them in 20 years. I finally gave them all > away, and have not regretted it. > In all honesty, I get great information from the Internet and it is > easier and faster to use than running to my bookshelves all of the > time. I do keep my lecture notes from college (well, from grad > school) and do refer to those occasionally. > Anyway, even if I did use my books faithfully, my students would never > think that would apply to them. > > So, what to do? > I only have control over what goes on within my own classroom. I can > choose to go hardline and utilize reading assignments as I see fit, or > I can follow the trend and encourage my students to read the text, yet > not rely upon it as a make-or-break issue.

May 7, 2010

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Mom to Three Well here is a new one for you. My husband actually got an email from a student asking if the students could use his software in their exam tomorrow morning which will be on the computer with calculations needing to done to compute the answers? The answer is no because the students were supposed to have read the related material in the textbook and...See More

May 10, 2010

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