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Why do so many students with LD fail in college?

by Joan Azarva

Jul 17, 2009

After having worked for 13 years as a college Learning Specialist, I resigned in 2006, dismayed by the poor success rate of college students with learning disabilities. By 2006, there were so many students disclosing and requesting services that I could see students only once in two weeks; I couldn't possibly provide the level of support they needed to succeed.

Under-staffing at college and university disability offices is the rule, with few exceptions, and usually those are the ones offering specialized programs. As a result, it is common for students with LD to be set up to fail from day one; unfortunately, neither they nor their parents realize that.

Because high school and college are such different systems, and students and parents haven't been schooled in how to navigate college with a disability, students inadvertently make errors that quickly result in a downhill slide. After an unsuccessful first semester, those who entered college with hope for a better futu...See More

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Joan Azarva My hat goes off to you for your persistence. You are truly to be commended!

I agree that too little is expected of Special ED students in HS. However, learning disabilities can vary widely and teaching to such a diverse group is very demanding. Thus, I think teachers teach to the lowest common denominator unless a student shows particular ...See MoreMy hat goes off to you for your persistence. You are truly to be commended!

I agree that too little is expected of Special ED students in HS. However, learning disabilities can vary widely and teaching to such a diverse group is very demanding. Thus, I think teachers teach to the lowest common denominator unless a student shows particular ability or interest.

What you did is extraordinary, but not all students have your resilience. Remember, too, that these students have been scarred (by difficulty with the learning process and teasing from their peers) from the time they started school. They learn it is less painful to take shortcuts or use avoidance tactics. You, at least, had experienced life as a mainstream learner, and your tenacity was partly an effort to regain what you had lost.

Without accommodations such as extra time, a distraction-free test environment, note-takers, etc, a lot of these students simply CAN'T make it - no matter how hard they try. They need to be told that they can capitalize on their strengths, while being taught technologies that help them compensate for their weaknesses. This can help many students overcome the frustration and function "normally", for the most part.

Our society pays a heavy price for LD students who drop out. They are relegated to low-paying, menial jobs, and they fill our prison system. We have to teach these kids that they CAN learn and that going for help is not demeaning, but empowering. In order for that to happen, it is essential that the college fit be right.

On 8/04/09, Life is just not fair-suck it up and keep going wrote: > It is my most sincere opinion that the reason students with > LD fail college is because while they were in HS, everyone- > their parents, peers, counselors, and teachers padded their > way... making excuses and wiped their behinds because they > had a LD. Life is tough. And some of us truly do have to > work harder than others. > > No, it is not "fair". But if you want to succeed in life, > you need to "suck it up" and go the extra mile. > > After having to drop out of HS because of a traumatic auto > accident that left me with a sever brain injury and a broken > neck (to name a few of the injuries)... It took me over three > years to recooperate. I took my GED and entered college with > an 8th grade education and a permanent (sp) brain injury to > draw from. I suffer from anomia and short-term memory > problems, which causes difficulty in my speech and of course > tests! I had a moment of doubt (after passing Spanish I > three times and still not remembering anything that would > prepare me to go into Spanish II) I went to my counselor to > seek special ed in regards to the foreign language > requirement. The process, as it was explained to me would be > a nightmare and take much longer to get approved than I was > due to graduate. So, I sucked it up and took Spanish > II...barely squeezing by with a C, and then bravely took > Spanish III and IV during the six week summer. (With each > class only three weeks long I didn't have time to forget the > lessons!) > > Would I have like to have actually "learned" Spanish? > Absolutely. But sadly enough, that is just something I'll > have to tackle on my own now that I'm done with college. > Sometimes you just have to whine to yourself...suck it > up...do what it takes...and keep going.. > > > On 7/17/09, Joan Azarva wrote: >> After having worked for 13 years as a college Learning >> Specialist, I resigned in 2006, dismayed by the poor success >> rate of college students with learning disabilities. By >> 2006, there were so many students disclosing and requesting >> services that I could see students only once in two weeks; I >> couldn't possibly provide the level of support they needed >> to succeed. >> >> Under-staffing at college and university disability offices >> is the rule, with few exceptions, and usually those are the >> ones offering specialized programs. As a result, it is >> common for students with LD to be set up to fail from day >> one; unfortunately, neither they nor their parents realize > that. >> >> Because high school and college are such different systems, >> and students and parents haven't been schooled in how to >> navigate college with a disability, students inadvertently >> make errors that quickly result in a downhill slide. After >> an unsuccessful first semester, those who entered college >> with hope for a better future are terribly discouraged. >> Many of them leave after their first year. >> >> The tragedy of this is threefold: >> >> a. These students leave school thinking they are not >> "college material", when in fact, that isn't necessarily the >> case. Had they made different decisions and had proper >> support, the outcome could have been far brighter. >> >> b. Where do you go after failing college, particularly >> community college, where the multitude of LD students >> begins? You go to tech school, if you're so inclined, or you >> are relegated to a low-paying menial job. >> >> c. Parents, feeling it's their duty to sacrifice and provide >> their kids with higher education, unknowingly throw their >> tuition dollars away. In the worst case scenario, the >> student takes a loan, has a good deal of money to re-pay >> (with interest), yet has no degree or higher-paying job to >> show for it. In essence, this student is WORSE off than > before! >> >> I know that the outcome can be different because I've sat on >> both sides of the desk; I raised a son with LD who graduated >> college successfully, but his success was hardly accidental. >> It was the result of researching extensively, preparing him >> for the college system, and assuring he had a strong safety >> net of support. >> >> For me, watching capable college students fail was >> unbearable. Feeling ineffectual at my job wasn't much fun >> either. I realized that it's almost impossible to rescue >> students once they have fallen into an abyss and their >> self-esteem is at rock-bottom. >> >> Upon my resignation in 2006, I vowed to come up with a >> PROACTIVE solution --to reach these students while still in >> high school. It seemed more sensible to teach them how to >> succeed in advance, rather than risk they'd fail, as >> approximately 84% of these students do. >> >> In essence, well-meaning parents think they are doing right >> by their teens, providing them the opportunity for higher >> education. What they REALLY are doing is sending their teens >> off with a tuition check and a backpack, trusting that the >> colleges will take over from there. NOT TRUE - this isn't >> Kansas anymore! >> >> I started a free e-list to arm parents with knowledge of the >> college system, so they can now enter this uncharted >> territory with eyes wide open. Anyone can subscribe at >> [link removed].

Aug 5, 2009

Life is just not fair-stick it out and keep going Joan,

Thank you so much for your support. As much as I dislike agreeing with someone who points out the faults in my arguement...I must give you your props.

You make a very compelling arguement regarding the difference between being born with a LD versus having a high intelligence stripped from you seemingly overnight. Kind of lik...See MoreJoan,

Thank you so much for your support. As much as I dislike agreeing with someone who points out the faults in my arguement...I must give you your props.

You make a very compelling arguement regarding the difference between being born with a LD versus having a high intelligence stripped from you seemingly overnight. Kind of like someone being born blind that will never know the color purple versus someone who went blind and can still see the hues of the beautiful violet flowers in their mind's eye.

As humiliating and degrading as it was to be stripped, you are correct. I remembered what and who I was prior, and would not settle for anything less.

But to play the devil's advocate for a moment... what I was trying to say is that regardless of an individual's handicap or LD, the working world does not make accomodations like HS does. I'm not suggesting that HS drop them in the water and say "sink or swim"... but rather than having someone take their notes for them...how about teaching them a way to take notes that is useful to them. (for me, during lectures I MUST doodle. It is a way to connect the verbal information to a physical one. If I actually "take notes" I will stop "listening" to the speaker as I am scrambling, trying to remember what the last thing they said was so I could write it down. So I always bring a tape recorder, tape the lecture and doodle) Rather than giving them extra time on a test, how about teaching them test-taking strategies and ways to study that suits the way their minds work? (mnemonic devices, either give them a clock or take it out of the room..which ever works best, etc.)

I just get worried because the more we accomodate them when they are younger, the more they will expect when they are older, and the harder they will fall in the work place when these expectations are not met. How sad it would be for a bright young adult who has the potential to become a partner at a law firm, but can never pass the Bar because he has not learned how to work with his handicap himself, but expects everyone else to? On the very rare occassion that the testers agree to give him "more time" or an "oral" exam... how will his job performance work out for him?

No it's not fair to be born with a LD...but it's not fair to be born blind...yet people still learn to read. Helen Keller was blind and deaf...and she learned how to work with it..and became a big political activist. Ray Charles became blind, but still continued to be a success. Yes, these are extraordinary people. They are extraordinary because from an early age they realized that the world was not going to bend over backwards for them...they would just have to work a little harder.

I truly believe that anyone with any kind of handicap can learn to work with it, rather than around it...if given the proper motivation and support. No, it's not easy. No, it's not fair. But these "children" won't stay children...they will eventually grow up. And all the pats on the back in HS or college will not equip them to deal with the working world...which, especially now during our financial crisis, does not have to make accomodations for them. If they turn into adults that expect everyone else to lay down their coat over a mud puddle for them... and this does not happen... I don't see how the result of ending up in menial jobs would be any different than if they couldn't survivie the pressures of college.

I may sound cruel, but it's just the opposite. If I didn't care about them I wouldn't feel so passionate about the subject. I really think making accomodations for them in their youth is harmful to their future. The sooner they learn that some of us truly do have to work harder than others the more effort they will put into it (with the right support of course).

On 8/05/09, Joan Azarva wrote: > My hat goes off to you for your persistence. You are truly to be > commended! > > I agree that too little is expected of Special ED students in HS. > However, learning disabilities can vary widely and teaching to > such a diverse group is very demanding. Thus, I think teachers > teach to the lowest common denominator unless a student shows > particular ability or interest. > > What you did is extraordinary, but not all students have your > resilience. Remember, too, that these students have been scarred > (by difficulty with the learning process and teasing from their > peers) from the time they started school. They learn it is less > painful to take shortcuts or use avoidance tactics. You, at least, > had experienced life as a mainstream learner, and your tenacity > was partly an effort to regain what you had lost. > > Without accommodations such as extra time, a distraction-free test > environment, note-takers, etc, a lot of these students simply > CAN'T make it - no matter how hard they try. They need to be told > that they can capitalize on their strengths, while being taught > technologies that help them compensate for their weaknesses. This > can help many students overcome the frustration and function > "normally", for the most part. > > Our society pays a heavy price for LD students who drop out. They > are relegated to low-paying, menial jobs, and they fill our prison > system. We have to teach these kids that they CAN learn and that > going for help is not demeaning, but empowering. In order for that > to happen, it is essential that the college fit be right. > > > > > > On 8/04/09, Life is just not fair-suck it up and keep going wrote: >> It is my most sincere opinion that the reason students with >> LD fail college is because while they were in HS, everyone- >> their parents, peers, counselors, and teachers padded their >> way... making excuses and wiped their behinds because they >> had a LD. Life is tough. And some of us truly do have to >> work harder than others. >> >> No, it is not "fair". But if you want to succeed in life, >> you need to "suck it up" and go the extra mile. >> >> After having to drop out of HS because of a traumatic auto >> accident that left me with a sever brain injury and a broken >> neck (to name a few of the injuries)... It took me over three >> years to recooperate. I took my GED and entered college with >> an 8th grade education and a permanent (sp) brain injury to >> draw from. I suffer from anomia and short-term memory >> problems, which causes difficulty in my speech and of course >> tests! I had a moment of doubt (after passing Spanish I >> three times and still not remembering anything that would >> prepare me to go into Spanish II) I went to my counselor to >> seek special ed in regards to the foreign language >> requirement. The process, as it was explained to me would be >> a nightmare and take much longer to get approved than I was >> due to graduate. So, I sucked it up and took Spanish >> II...barely squeezing by with a C, and then bravely took >> Spanish III and IV during the six week summer. (With each >> class only three weeks long I didn't have time to forget the >> lessons!) >> >> Would I have like to have actually "learned" Spanish? >> Absolutely. But sadly enough, that is just something I'll >> have to tackle on my own now that I'm done with college. >> Sometimes you just have to whine to yourself...suck it >> up...do what it takes...and keep going.. >> >> >> On 7/17/09, Joan Azarva wrote: >>> After having worked for 13 years as a college Learning >>> Specialist, I resigned in 2006, dismayed by the poor success >>> rate of college students with learning disabilities. By >>> 2006, there were so many students disclosing and requesting >>> services that I could see students only once in two weeks; I >>> couldn't possibly provide the level of support they needed >>> to succeed. >>> >>> Under-staffing at college and university disability offices >>> is the rule, with few exceptions, and usually those are the >>> ones offering specialized programs. As a result, it is >>> common for students with LD to be set up to fail from day >>> one; unfortunately, neither they nor their parents realize >> that. >>> >>> Because high school and college are such different systems, >>> and students and parents haven't been schooled in how to >>> navigate college with a disability, students inadvertently >>> make errors that quickly result in a downhill slide. After >>> an unsuccessful first semester, those who entered college >>> with hope for a better future are terribly discouraged. >>> Many of them leave after their first year. >>> >>> The tragedy of this is threefold: >>> >>> a. These students leave school thinking they are not >>> "college material", when in fact, that isn't necessarily the >>> case. Had they made different decisions and had proper >>> support, the outcome could have been far brighter. >>> >>> b. Where do you go after failing college, particularly >>> community college, where the multitude of LD students >>> begins? You go to tech school, if you're so inclined, or you >>> are relegated to a low-paying menial job. >>> >>> c. Parents, feeling it's their duty to sacrifice and provide >>> their kids with higher education, unknowingly throw their >>> tuition dollars away. In the worst case scenario, the >>> student takes a loan, has a good deal of money to re-pay >>> (with interest), yet has no degree or higher-paying job to >>> show for it. In essence, this student is WORSE off than >> before! >>> >>> I know that the outcome can be different because I've sat on >>> both sides of the desk; I raised a son with LD who graduated >>> college successfully, but his success was hardly accidental. >>> It was the result of researching extensively, preparing him >>> for the college system, and assuring he had a strong safety >>> net of support. >>> >>> For me, watching capable college students fail was >>> unbearable. Feeling ineffectual at my job wasn't much fun >>> either. I realized that it's almost impossible to rescue >>> students once they have fallen into an abyss and their >>> self-esteem is at rock-bottom. >>> >>> Upon my resignation in 2006, I vowed to come up with a >>> PROACTIVE solution --to reach these students while still in >>> high school. It seemed more sensible to teach them how to >>> succeed in advance, rather than risk they'd fail, as >>> approximately 84% of these students do. >>> >>> In essence, well-meaning parents think they are doing right >>> by their teens, providing them the opportunity for higher >>> education. What they REALLY are doing is sending their teens >>> off with a tuition check and a backpack, trusting that the >>> colleges will take over from there. NOT TRUE - this isn't >>> Kansas anymore! >>> >>> I started a free e-list to arm parents with knowledge of the >>> college system, so they can now enter this uncharted >>> territory with eyes wide open. Anyone can subscribe at >>> [link removed].

Aug 5, 2009

Joan Azarva On 8/05/09, Life is just not fair-stick it out and keep going wrote:

I think the answer lies somewhere in the middle. Students need to be taught how to function independently, but it takes good support to do that. They need to be taught how to use technology to help them rise above their weak spots. For example, the Live Scribe pen might ...See MoreOn 8/05/09, Life is just not fair-stick it out and keep going wrote:

I think the answer lies somewhere in the middle. Students need to be taught how to function independently, but it takes good support to do that. They need to be taught how to use technology to help them rise above their weak spots. For example, the Live Scribe pen might be a good resource for someone who would normally need a notetaker.

I'm not sure you are aware, but companies get tax breaks when they hire someone with a disability. It is to their advantage to do so, and some employees may need accommodations such as extra time. If their output is good, and they're in an industry that isn't high pressure, I think this is a fair compromise.

I know of a blind doctor and a blind engineer. They made it through school with accommodations, and I'm sure they need accommodations on the job. The Americans with Disabilities Act protects these people because they are "otherwise qualified". If they have the ability and the persistence, it's illegal to not give them accommodations. It would be like telling a near-sighted person to work without glasses.

I understand what you mean by things being handed to students too easily. Yet, in any population you'll find slugs and Energizer bunnies. The slugs will get the accommodations and make nothing of themselves, while the bunnies rise to great heights. I think that taking away accommodations would do a great disservice to those industrious individuals.

In any case, you should be proud of what you've accomplished - you write beautifully - and I wish your tenacity was contagious! > Joan, > > Thank you so much for your support. As much as I dislike agreeing > with someone who points out the faults in my arguement...I must > give you your props. > > You make a very compelling arguement regarding the difference > between being born with a LD versus having a high intelligence > stripped from you seemingly overnight. Kind of like someone being > born blind that will never know the color purple versus someone who > went blind and can still see the hues of the beautiful violet > flowers in their mind's eye. > > As humiliating and degrading as it was to be stripped, you are > correct. I remembered what and who I was prior, and would not > settle for anything less. > > But to play the devil's advocate for a moment... what I was trying > to say is that regardless of an individual's handicap or LD, the > working world does not make accomodations like HS does. I'm not > suggesting that HS drop them in the water and say "sink or swim"... > but rather than having someone take their notes for them...how > about teaching them a way to take notes that is useful to them. > (for me, during lectures I MUST doodle. It is a way to connect the > verbal information to a physical one. If I actually "take notes" I > will stop "listening" to the speaker as I am scrambling, trying to > remember what the last thing they said was so I could write it > down. So I always bring a tape recorder, tape the lecture and > doodle) Rather than giving them extra time on a test, how about > teaching them test-taking strategies and ways to study that suits > the way their minds work? (mnemonic devices, either give them a > clock or take it out of the room..which ever works best, etc.) > > I just get worried because the more we accomodate them when they > are younger, the more they will expect when they are older, and the > harder they will fall in the work place when these expectations are > not met. How sad it would be for a bright young adult who has the > potential to become a partner at a law firm, but can never pass the > Bar because he has not learned how to work with his handicap > himself, but expects everyone else to? On the very rare occassion > that the testers agree to give him "more time" or an "oral" exam... > how will his job performance work out for him? > > No it's not fair to be born with a LD...but it's not fair to be > born blind...yet people still learn to read. Helen Keller was > blind and deaf...and she learned how to work with it..and became a > big political activist. Ray Charles became blind, but still > continued to be a success. Yes, these are extraordinary people. > They are extraordinary because from an early age they realized that > the world was not going to bend over backwards for them...they > would just have to work a little harder. > > I truly believe that anyone with any kind of handicap can learn to > work with it, rather than around it...if given the proper > motivation and support. No, it's not easy. No, it's not fair. > But these "children" won't stay children...they will eventually > grow up. And all the pats on the back in HS or college will not > equip them to deal with the working world...which, especially now > during our financial crisis, does not have to make accomodations > for them. If they turn into adults that expect everyone else to > lay down their coat over a mud puddle for them... and this does not > happen... I don't see how the result of ending up in menial jobs > would be any different than if they couldn't survivie the pressures > of college. > > I may sound cruel, but it's just the opposite. If I didn't care > about them I wouldn't feel so passionate about the subject. I > really think making accomodations for them in their youth is > harmful to their future. The sooner they learn that some of us > truly do have to work harder than others the more effort they will > put into it (with the right support of course). > > > > On 8/05/09, Joan Azarva wrote: >> My hat goes off to you for your persistence. You are truly to be >> commended! >> >> I agree that too little is expected of Special ED students in HS. >> However, learning disabilities can vary widely and teaching to >> such a diverse group is very demanding. Thus, I think teachers >> teach to the lowest common denominator unless a student shows >> particular ability or interest. >> >> What you did is extraordinary, but not all students have your >> resilience. Remember, too, that these students have been scarred >> (by difficulty with the learning process and teasing from their >> peers) from the time they started school. They learn it is less >> painful to take shortcuts or use avoidance tactics. You, at least, >> had experienced life as a mainstream learner, and your tenacity >> was partly an effort to regain what you had lost. >> >> Without accommodations such as extra time, a distraction-free test >> environment, note-takers, etc, a lot of these students simply >> CAN'T make it - no matter how hard they try. They need to be told >> that they can capitalize on their strengths, while being taught >> technologies that help them compensate for their weaknesses. This >> can help many students overcome the frustration and function >> "normally", for the most part. >> >> Our society pays a heavy price for LD students who drop out. They >> are relegated to low-paying, menial jobs, and they fill our prison >> system. We have to teach these kids that they CAN learn and that >> going for help is not demeaning, but empowering. In order for that >> to happen, it is essential that the college fit be right. >> >> >> >> >> >> On 8/04/09, Life is just not fair-suck it up and keep going > wrote: >>> It is my most sincere opinion that the reason students with >>> LD fail college is because while they were in HS, everyone- >>> their parents, peers, counselors, and teachers padded their >>> way... making excuses and wiped their behinds because they >>> had a LD. Life is tough. And some of us truly do have to >>> work harder than others. >>> >>> No, it is not "fair". But if you want to succeed in life, >>> you need to "suck it up" and go the extra mile. >>> >>> After having to drop out of HS because of a traumatic auto >>> accident that left me with a sever brain injury and a broken >>> neck (to name a few of the injuries)... It took me over three >>> years to recooperate. I took my GED and entered college with >>> an 8th grade education and a permanent (sp) brain injury to >>> draw from. I suffer from anomia and short-term memory >>> problems, which causes difficulty in my speech and of course >>> tests! I had a moment of doubt (after passing Spanish I >>> three times and still not remembering anything that would >>> prepare me to go into Spanish II) I went to my counselor to >>> seek special ed in regards to the foreign language >>> requirement. The process, as it was explained to me would be >>> a nightmare and take much longer to get approved than I was >>> due to graduate. So, I sucked it up and took Spanish >>> II...barely squeezing by with a C, and then bravely took >>> Spanish III and IV during the six week summer. (With each >>> class only three weeks long I didn't have time to forget the >>> lessons!) >>> >>> Would I have like to have actually "learned" Spanish? >>> Absolutely. But sadly enough, that is just something I'll >>> have to tackle on my own now that I'm done with college. >>> Sometimes you just have to whine to yourself...suck it >>> up...do what it takes...and keep going.. >>> >>> >>> On 7/17/09, Joan Azarva wrote: >>>> After having worked for 13 years as a college Learning >>>> Specialist, I resigned in 2006, dismayed by the poor success >>>> rate of college students with learning disabilities. By >>>> 2006, there were so many students disclosing and requesting >>>> services that I could see students only once in two weeks; I >>>> couldn't possibly provide the level of support they needed >>>> to succeed. >>>> >>>> Under-staffing at college and university disability offices >>>> is the rule, with few exceptions, and usually those are the >>>> ones offering specialized programs. As a result, it is >>>> common for students with LD to be set up to fail from day >>>> one; unfortunately, neither they nor their parents realize >>> that. >>>> >>>> Because high school and college are such different systems, >>>> and students and parents haven't been schooled in how to >>>> navigate college with a disability, students inadvertently >>>> make errors that quickly result in a downhill slide. After >>>> an unsuccessful first semester, those who entered college >>>> with hope for a better future are terribly discouraged. >>>> Many of them leave after their first year. >>>> >>>> The tragedy of this is threefold: >>>> >>>> a. These students leave school thinking they are not >>>> "college material", when in fact, that isn't necessarily the >>>> case. Had they made different decisions and had proper >>>> support, the outcome could have been far brighter. >>>> >>>> b. Where do you go after failing college, particularly >>>> community college, where the multitude of LD students >>>> begins? You go to tech school, if you're so inclined, or you >>>> are relegated to a low-paying menial job. >>>> >>>> c. Parents, feeling it's their duty to sacrifice and provide >>>> their kids with higher education, unknowingly throw their >>>> tuition dollars away. In the worst case scenario, the >>>> student takes a loan, has a good deal of money to re-pay >>>> (with interest), yet has no degree or higher-paying job to >>>> show for it. In essence, this student is WORSE off than >>> before! >>>> >>>> I know that the outcome can be different because I've sat on >>>> both sides of the desk; I raised a son with LD who graduated >>>> college successfully, but his success was hardly accidental. >>>> It was the result of researching extensively, preparing him >>>> for the college system, and assuring he had a strong safety >>>> net of support. >>>> >>>> For me, watching capable college students fail was >>>> unbearable. Feeling ineffectual at my job wasn't much fun >>>> either. I realized that it's almost impossible to rescue >>>> students once they have fallen into an abyss and their >>>> self-esteem is at rock-bottom. >>>> >>>> Upon my resignation in 2006, I vowed to come up with a >>>> PROACTIVE solution --to reach these students while still in >>>> high school. It seemed more sensible to teach them how to >>>> succeed in advance, rather than risk they'd fail, as >>>> approximately 84% of these students do. >>>> >>>> In essence, well-meaning parents think they are doing right >>>> by their teens, providing them the opportunity for higher >>>> education. What they REALLY are doing is sending their teens >>>> off with a tuition check and a backpack, trusting that the >>>> colleges will take over from there. NOT TRUE - this isn't >>>> Kansas anymore! >>>> >>>> I started a free e-list to arm parents with knowledge of the >>>> college system, so they can now enter this uncharted >>>> territory with eyes wide open. Anyone can subscribe at >>>> [link removed].

Aug 5, 2009

Life is just not fair-stick it out and keep going Joan,

Again, thank you for your compliment. I can only wish that I could speak as well as I write...but being behind a keyboard does allow me the "extra time" to find the words.

I agree with you that there does need to be a middle ground...which is why I stand by my conviction that the way colleges are designed these days IS the ...See MoreJoan,

Again, thank you for your compliment. I can only wish that I could speak as well as I write...but being behind a keyboard does allow me the "extra time" to find the words.

I agree with you that there does need to be a middle ground...which is why I stand by my conviction that the way colleges are designed these days IS the middle ground. There are resources for students with LD, the only difference is that it is up to the student to take the initiative to seek out, explore, and work with these programs.

As for the Disabilities Act, I am aware of it. However, I live in a "Right to Work" state in which an employer has the right to turn down a job applicant or terminate employment at their "legal" discression for any reason. While on paper, terminating an employee because of a LD is illegal, it's kind of hard to prove that is the case. Even if the employee can present documents that state his/her job performance is a direct result from the LD (which is rarely successful), as per the code of being "otherwise qualified", the employer can still terminate because the job is not getting done...and can easily prove that the termination is due to the lack of performance and not the LD.

I know being a teacher that I've had a most difficult time during interviews because of my anomia. Even during my internship there was concern while I tried to instruct...and left lengthy pauses in my dialogue as my poor brain searched for simple words. Do you really think that if I disclosed in an interview, when they asked me what my "faults" were, of my TBI that the school would feel comfortable and confident in hiring an English teacher that "can't talk good" because of brain damage? Needless to say, I had to practice and practically memorize answers to standard interview questions...and I got lucky, very lucky that a small private school who does not have the financial means to meet the salaries of public schools hired me. Can I prove that I was not hired because of my LD by the public schools? Of course not. All they have to say is that they went with a better qualified teacher. But knowing the truth and being able to prove it are two different stories.

Sorry for writing a book...I'm an English teacher who loves words, even if they escape me! lol

I do enjoy our dialogue, even if we disagree on a few points.

On 8/05/09, Joan Azarva wrote: > On 8/05/09, Life is just not fair-stick it out and keep going wrote: > > I think the answer lies somewhere in the middle. Students need to be > taught how to function independently, but it takes good support to do > that. They need to be taught how to use technology to help them rise > above their weak spots. For example, the Live Scribe pen might be a > good resource for someone who would normally need a notetaker. > > I'm not sure you are aware, but companies get tax breaks when they hire > someone with a disability. It is to their advantage to do so, and some > employees may need accommodations such as extra time. If their output is > good, and they're in an industry that isn't high pressure, I think this > is a fair compromise. > > I know of a blind doctor and a blind engineer. They made it through > school with accommodations, and I'm sure they need accommodations on the > job. The Americans with Disabilities Act protects these people because > they are "otherwise qualified". If they have the ability and the > persistence, it's illegal to not give them accommodations. It would be > like telling a near-sighted person to work without glasses. > > I understand what you mean by things being handed to students too > easily. Yet, in any population you'll find slugs and Energizer bunnies. > The slugs will get the accommodations and make nothing of themselves, > while the bunnies rise to great heights. I think that taking away > accommodations would do a great disservice to those industrious > individuals. > > In any case, you should be proud of what you've accomplished - you write > beautifully - and I wish your tenacity was contagious! >> Joan, >>

Aug 6, 2009

Sara But to play the devil's advocate for a moment... what I was trying to say is that regardless of an individual's handicap or LD, the working world does not make accomodations like HS does.

The working world does make accomodations but not like HS does. But there are a great many different types of jobs in the working world. I have to suck ...See More

Aug 10, 2009

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