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South Carolina Teachers Chatboard

SC Teachers and unions

by Theodore A. Jones

Dec 29, 2009

Representation by a strong collective bargaining organization for the teachers of SC is a good idea. For teachers are the only class of employees that I am aware of that the SC legislature has by law intentionally removed the right of due process. When you sign a contract to teach in any public SC school you also sign away your right to due process. Contacting your SC representatives with a complaint would be a good thing to do for yourselves. I would also suggest that you contact the US Dept. of Justice since the state of SC remains under a civil rights watch. Another thing the SC teacher needs is a contract that clearly defines your employment responsibilities by a job description that is a SC standard relative to the subjects you teach and the ADEPT system. This would do away with the induction, annual and continuing contracts and will result in only a multi year teaching contract that is unilateral in SC. The ADEPT system needs to be modified so that the building principal is not a...See More

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W. Rogers lease see comments below, preceeded by "*****" - Will

On 12/31/09, yeah... wrote: > On 12/30/09, Theodore A. Jones wrote: >> Any person or group of persons in the US can form a collective >> bargaining unit or unite with one that already exist to obtain the >> strength found in solidarity. *****Very true, and at the be...See Morelease see comments below, preceeded by "*****" - Will

On 12/31/09, yeah... wrote: > On 12/30/09, Theodore A. Jones wrote: >> Any person or group of persons in the US can form a collective >> bargaining unit or unite with one that already exist to obtain the >> strength found in solidarity. *****Very true, and at the beginning a VERY positive change in the worker- employer relationship. But during my graduate studies and observances of Pennsylvania teacher union effectiveness, they have outlived their usefulness in their current forms. During my research of WESTLAW and Teh YALE Library, COngressional committee reports, and PROQUEST (just to name a few...we were required to site over 20 different resource locations to obtain our sources for our research and associated papers), the current system has become top-heavy and ineffective. When union reps make arounf 3 to 50 times the members, there is a REAL problem! Once union reps can take the same pay of those whom they represent, there cannot be a full understanding of what teacher go through. When you combine that with union protecting teachers who do not do their job, do not fully consider more support for the lower-level teachers (ever see a union negotiated pay scale...MASSIVELY weighted toward the teachers who have seniority), the unions must CHOOSE to work for the benefit of ALL teachers, just as each state MUST be fair in what they do also when it comes to ALL types of employees.

However in the post by W. Rogers a complicated two part divisive mind set between North and South is evidenced that is particular only to the Southerner. WWJD means "What would Jesus do?" and is the religious component of the mind set. *****Yes, that is true. For those who choose to set their personal standards to reflect how to best assist their fellow man, even at the pain and sacrafice of ones self, it is a good thing. I choose to not accept a 70,000 a year job, and decided to teach at 42,000 a year. Why? It is simple: the children in the South Carolina Lowcountry need people who care for them, will accept and love them just as they are...my personal choice. I served in the US Navy and the Pennsylvania Army National Guard before going to Penn State and late Saint Vincent College, both in PA. My cooperative teachers were AWESOME!!! I learned so much from them, and they gave so much of themselves for their students, years later...I am still in Awe of them! :-) Unfortunately, not everyone is like them...I wish I was wrong, but I am dead on. But it is not just just teaching unions fail, unions are failing across the board....a topic for another board, and I digress.

The other part of this mind set is "I would become like a >> Yankee if I join a union and Jesus would not do that.", ******I completely believe that is false. Being a yankee has nothing with what a true christian will do...just as being a former sailor (not a "squid") has nothing about my choices...but I can only speak for myself.

regarding that the word Yankee to a Southerner means a person from the >> northern section of the US where collective bargaining units were >> once common. *****Wrong Mr. Jones. A YANKEE is someone who shows lack of respect for others, is borish, bull-headed, self-centered, concerned only for their needs and wants, at the expense and pain of others.

The US Southerner constructs most of his foolish thinking around this mind set. Hope this helps you a bit, aye, and I think I might be bringing out the best the Southerner has to offer. *****I agree completely! A trus coutherner is one who not only whines, but tries to help his fellow neighbor better their lives in any way they can. A false person (northerner or southerner), a person who has no spine, or is not willing to help others, or offer solutions to problems we call jellyfish or whiners.

Once we all decdide to try and help others to the best of our ability, we in the teaching profession can move forward. Once teachers can come together and stop back-biting and hurting each other (you know, act as professionals), we teachers, not administrators, SHALL control what happens in a positive direction.

Positive social change comes from teachers teaching the children positive social skills and strong ethical skills....teachers CAN change the world, one year at a time.

Will Rogers

>> Some jelly fish do not live in the sea for example. On >> 12/30/09, Canadian Teacher wrote: >>> Dear SC Colleagues, >>> >>> I was just perusing this site and came upon this thread. >>> >>> Why can't SC teachers form a union (if they wanted to)? Don't >>> American workers have this right? I'm confused. > > They can form a union. But because of right to work laws, the state > will not engage in collective bargaining with any union. It wouldn't > do any good, even if folks could get their butts behind a union. They > would first have to force a change in state laws. Wish I had known > this stuff before moving to SC. It is hard to even imagine that a > group of people would give up the right to have fair contracts, fair > pay and fair working conditions. Right to work = right to be fired for > any reason or no reason whatsoever. Strange stuff

Dec 31, 2009

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Theodore A. Jones I agree that a majority of the professional and labor unions are not the best things going but that does not mean by any strech that you people do not need the representation of a professional barganing unit. As you said it is the current form that has outlived its usefulness. So come up with another form. I think the laws of SC that are revelant t...See MoreI agree that a majority of the professional and labor unions are not the best things going but that does not mean by any strech that you people do not need the representation of a professional barganing unit. As you said it is the current form that has outlived its usefulness. So come up with another form. I think the laws of SC that are revelant to the profession of teaching have allowed the formation of a condition known as company unions which federal law prohibits. I was once employed by a SC "Christian" school which actually had a company union. Dues were charged and the president was always the school's "business" manager. One thing you need to know about SC employers. According to the US Dept. of Labor SC employers have one of the highest noncompliance rates to FLSA and other employment statutes than employers in other states. Not many SC employees are represented by collective barganing either. As for your retort in regard to Southerners, Yankees, and WWJD, etc. It is my opinion that I am acting in the best intrest of the SC classroom teacher and it is your mind set that is still in opposition.

On 12/31/09, W. Rogers wrote: > Please see comments below, preceeded by "*****" - Will > > On 12/31/09, yeah... wrote: >> On 12/30/09, Theodore A. Jones wrote: >>> Any person or group of persons in the US can form a collective >>> bargaining unit or unite with one that already exist to obtain the >>> strength found in solidarity. > *****Very true, and at the beginning a VERY positive change in the worker- > employer relationship. But during my graduate studies and observances of > Pennsylvania teacher union effectiveness, they have outlived their > usefulness in their current forms. During my research of WESTLAW and Teh > YALE Library, COngressional committee reports, and PROQUEST (just to name > a few...we were required to site over 20 different resource locations to > obtain our sources for our research and associated papers), the current > system has become top-heavy and ineffective. When union reps make arounf > 3 to 50 times the members, there is a REAL problem! > Once union reps can take the same pay of those whom they represent, > there cannot be a full understanding of what teacher go through. When you > combine that with union protecting teachers who do not do their job, do > not fully consider more support for the lower-level teachers (ever see a > union negotiated pay scale...MASSIVELY weighted toward the teachers who > have seniority), the unions must CHOOSE to work for the benefit of ALL > teachers, just as each state MUST be fair in what they do also when it > comes to ALL types of employees. > > However in the post by W. Rogers a complicated two part divisive mind > set between North and South is evidenced that is particular only to the > Southerner. WWJD means "What would Jesus do?" and is the religious > component of the mind set. > *****Yes, that is true. For those who choose to set their personal > standards to reflect how to best assist their fellow man, even at the > pain and sacrafice of ones self, it is a good thing. I choose to not > accept a 70,000 a year job, and decided to teach at 42,000 a year. Why? > It is simple: the children in the South Carolina Lowcountry need people > who care for them, will accept and love them just as they are...my > personal choice. I served in the US Navy and the Pennsylvania Army > National Guard before going to Penn State and late Saint Vincent College, > both in PA. > My cooperative teachers were AWESOME!!! I learned so much from them, > and they gave so much of themselves for their students, years later...I > am still in Awe of them! :-) > Unfortunately, not everyone is like them...I wish I was wrong, but I > am dead on. But it is not just just teaching unions fail, unions are > failing across the board....a topic for another board, and I digress. > > The other part of this mind set is "I would become like a >>> Yankee if I join a union and Jesus would not do that.", > ******I completely believe that is false. Being a yankee has nothing with > what a true christian will do...just as being a former sailor (not > a "squid") has nothing about my choices...but I can only speak for myself. > > regarding that the word Yankee to a Southerner means a person from the >>> northern section of the US where collective bargaining units were >>> once common. > *****Wrong Mr. Jones. A YANKEE is someone who shows lack of respect for > others, is borish, bull-headed, self-centered, concerned only for their > needs and wants, at the expense and pain of others. > > The US Southerner constructs most of his foolish thinking around this > mind set. Hope this helps you a bit, aye, and I think I might be > bringing out the best the Southerner has to offer. > *****I agree completely! A trus coutherner is one who not only whines, > but tries to help his fellow neighbor better their lives in any way they > can. A false person (northerner or southerner), a person who has no > spine, or is not willing to help others, or offer solutions to problems > we call jellyfish or whiners. > > Once we all decdide to try and help others to the best of our ability, we > in the teaching profession can move forward. Once teachers can come > together and stop back-biting and hurting each other (you know, act as > professionals), we teachers, not administrators, SHALL control what > happens in a positive direction. > > Positive social change comes from teachers teaching the children positive > social skills and strong ethical skills....teachers CAN change the world, > one year at a time. > > Will Rogers > > >>> Some jelly fish do not live in the sea for example. On >>> 12/30/09, Canadian Teacher wrote: >>>> Dear SC Colleagues, >>>> >>>> I was just perusing this site and came upon this thread. >>>> >>>> Why can't SC teachers form a union (if they wanted to)? Don't >>>> American workers have this right? I'm confused. >> >> They can form a union. But because of right to work laws, the state >> will not engage in collective bargaining with any union. It wouldn't >> do any good, even if folks could get their butts behind a union. They >> would first have to force a change in state laws. Wish I had known >> this stuff before moving to SC. It is hard to even imagine that a >> group of people would give up the right to have fair contracts, fair >> pay and fair working conditions. Right to work = right to be fired for >> any reason or no reason whatsoever. Strange stuff

Jan 1, 2010

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Will Rogers On 1/01/10, Theodore A. Jones wrote: > I agree that a majority of the professional and labor > unions are not the best > things going but that does not mean by any strech that > you people do not need the representation of a > professional barganing unit. *****When you refer to "uyou people" do you refer to individuals with Master's ...See MoreOn 1/01/10, Theodore A. Jones wrote: > I agree that a majority of the professional and labor > unions are not the best > things going but that does not mean by any strech that > you people do not need the representation of a > professional barganing unit. *****When you refer to "uyou people" do you refer to individuals with Master's degrees, skilled in political science, helped broker 3 congressional races, 2 us senate races, help elect two presidents (Clinton and BushII), got 2 judges elected, was a political science teaching assistant as a SOPHMORE in college, helped write the current laws for welfare, helped write a US budget, acted as a union negotiator three times in PA (won all 3 contracts, thank you very much), parlimentarian in a georgia political party congressional district , acted as county party chair and parlimentarian, helped PSU create it's current student fee program with administrators, staff, and students? Or are we STILL living in a angry world where YOU need to become an agent of change! MAKE A CHOICE HERE...SNIPE OR CHOOSE TO ACT. If you want help, e-mail me direct at [email removed].

So the question becomes......youo just going to while, or are you REALLY WILLING TO ACT.

Let me know, I'm listening....wo else is in? If you want change, e-mail me....we can start something here.

Will

As you said it is the > current form that has outlived its usefulness. So come > up with another form. I think the laws of SC that are > revelant to the profession of teaching have allowed the > formation of a condition known as company unions which > federal law prohibits. I was once employed by a SC > "Christian" school which actually had a > company union. Dues were charged and the president was > always the school's "business" manager. One > thing you need to know about SC employers. According to > the US Dept. of Labor SC employers have one of the > highest noncompliance rates to FLSA and other > employment statutes than employers in other states. Not > many SC employees are represented by collective > barganing either. As for your retort in regard to > Southerners, Yankees, and WWJD, etc. It is my opinion > that I am acting in the best intrest of the SC > classroom teacher and it is your mind set that is still > in opposition. > > On 12/31/09, W. Rogers wrote: >> Please see comments below, preceeded by >> "*****" - Will >> >> On 12/31/09, yeah... wrote: >>> On 12/30/09, Theodore A. Jones wrote: >>>> Any person or group of persons in the US can form >>>> a collective bargaining unit or unite with one >>>> that already exist to obtain the strength found >>>> in solidarity. >> *****Very true, and at the beginning a VERY positive >> change in the worker- employer relationship. But >> during my graduate studies and observances of >> Pennsylvania teacher union effectiveness, they have >> outlived their usefulness in their current forms. >> During my research of WESTLAW and Teh YALE Library, >> COngressional committee reports, and PROQUEST (just >> to name a few...we were required to site over 20 >> different resource locations to obtain our sources >> for our research and associated papers), the current >> system has become top-heavy and ineffective. When >> union reps make arounf 3 to 50 times the members, >> there is a REAL problem! Once union reps can take the >> same pay of those whom they represent, there cannot >> be a full understanding of what teacher go through. >> When you combine that with union protecting teachers >> who do not do their job, do not fully consider more >> support for the lower-level teachers (ever see a >> union negotiated pay scale...MASSIVELY weighted >> toward the teachers who have seniority), the unions >> must CHOOSE to work for the benefit of ALL teachers, >> just as each state MUST be fair in what they do also >> when it comes to ALL types of employees. >> >> However in the post by W. Rogers a complicated two >> part divisive mind set between North and South is >> evidenced that is particular only to the Southerner. >> WWJD means "What would Jesus do?" and is >> the religious component of the mind set. *****Yes, >> that is true. For those who choose to set their >> personal standards to reflect how to best assist >> their fellow man, even at the pain and sacrafice of >> ones self, it is a good thing. I choose to not accept >> a 70,000 a year job, and decided to teach at 42,000 a >> year. Why? It is simple: the children in the South >> Carolina Lowcountry need people who care for them, >> will accept and love them just as they are...my >> personal choice. I served in the US Navy and the >> Pennsylvania Army National Guard before going to Penn >> State and late Saint Vincent College, both in PA. My >> cooperative teachers were AWESOME!!! I learned so >> much from them, and they gave so much of themselves >> for their students, years later...I am still in Awe >> of them! :-) Unfortunately, not everyone is like >> them...I wish I was wrong, but I am dead on. But it >> is not just just teaching unions fail, unions are >> failing across the board....a topic for another >> board, and I digress. >> >> The other part of this mind set is "I would >> become like a >>>> Yankee if I join a union and Jesus would not do >>>> that.", >> ******I completely believe that is false. Being a >> yankee has nothing with what a true christian will >> do...just as being a former sailor (not a >> "squid") has nothing about my choices...but >> I can only speak for myself. >> >> regarding that the word Yankee to a Southerner means >> a person from the >>>> northern section of the US where collective >>>> bargaining units were once common. >> *****Wrong Mr. Jones. A YANKEE is someone who shows >> lack of respect for others, is borish, bull-headed, >> self-centered, concerned only for their needs and >> wants, at the expense and pain of others. >> >> The US Southerner constructs most of his foolish >> thinking around this mind set. Hope this helps you a >> bit, aye, and I think I might be bringing out the >> best the Southerner has to offer. *****I agree >> completely! A trus coutherner is one who not only >> whines, but tries to help his fellow neighbor better >> their lives in any way they can. A false person >> (northerner or southerner), a person who has no >> spine, or is not willing to help others, or offer >> solutions to problems we call jellyfish or whiners. >> >> Once we all decdide to try and help others to the >> best of our ability, we in the teaching profession >> can move forward. Once teachers can come together and >> stop back-biting and hurting each other (you know, >> act as professionals), we teachers, not >> administrators, SHALL control what happens in a >> positive direction. >> >> Positive social change comes from teachers teaching >> the children positive social skills and strong >> ethical skills....teachers CAN change the world, one >> year at a time. >> >> Will Rogers >> >> >>>> Some jelly fish do not live in the sea for >>>> example. On 12/30/09, Canadian Teacher wrote: >>>>> Dear SC Colleagues, >>>>> >>>>> I was just perusing this site and came upon >>>>> this thread. >>>>> >>>>> Why can't SC teachers form a union (if they >>>>> wanted to)? Don't American workers have this >>>>> right? I'm confused. >>> >>> They can form a union. But because of right to work >>> laws, the state will not engage in collective >>> bargaining with any union. It wouldn't do any good, >>> even if folks could get their butts behind a union. >>> They would first have to force a change in state >>> laws. Wish I had known this stuff before moving to >>> SC. It is hard to even imagine that a group of >>> people would give up the right to have fair >>> contracts, fair pay and fair working conditions. >>> Right to work = right to be fired for any reason or >>> no reason whatsoever. Strange stuff

Jan 1, 2010

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I'm in!! Will- what should we do?

On 1/01/10, Will Rogers wrote: > On 1/01/10, Theodore A. Jones wrote: >> I agree that a majority of the professional and labor >> unions are not the best >> things going but that does not mean by any strech that >> you people do not need the representation of a >> professional barga...See More

Jan 1, 2010

report post