Management of Those Unwilling to Succeed

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Classroom Management Chatboard

Management of Those Unwilling to Succeed

by Cody C.

Feb 21, 2011

A few day prior to this posting I was having a conversation with a senior teacher in regards to students who are very honest about their never wanting to, or unwillingness towrds, graduating from high school. Although I work with a group of students who are far more likely to drop out than the majority (EBD students), I have had student who tell me from day one that they do not plan on graduating and they will do the minimal amount of work to fill the time for three or so years.

What do you think about this situation in general? Also, what do you believe would be the best classroom management technique to use with this student (especially due to the fact that they try to sell the idea of dropping out to their peers)?

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Steve On 2/21/11, Cody C. wrote:

I'd be tempted to ask them - gently and kindly - what they are going to do when they drop out?? If by some miracle they have million dollar jobs waiting for them when they drop out, well, then, wow, I'll drop out with them. We have to understand that they find school odious and it's then understandable that they...See MoreOn 2/21/11, Cody C. wrote:

I'd be tempted to ask them - gently and kindly - what they are going to do when they drop out?? If by some miracle they have million dollar jobs waiting for them when they drop out, well, then, wow, I'll drop out with them. We have to understand that they find school odious and it's then understandable that they'd want to drop out. How many people do you know who say they can't wait until they can retire? That's a kind of dropping out really but most of my friends who retire then are pretty unhappy - dropping out and retiring both aren't all they're cracked up to be.

When kids talk about dropping out, they're really talking about ending the pain. School is painful for them - our schools mine included really only reach a certain kind of learner and the others fall through not the cracks but the huge gaps in the system. So they want to drop out to get out of the gap.

But what are they going to do? Such a question can also be painful for them because most never consider life past the happy moment they drop out. What will they do the next day? Make a life watching Jerry Springer? Have they heard that jobs are pretty hard to come by these days? Are they independently wealthy?

I actually went through this with my own son. His very skilled Dean of Students sympathized with his desire to drop out but kept him in school by simply asking "What are you going to do tomorrow when you wake up? Sit home? Watching television? Forever?" And she asked it in a very nice and caring tone of voice.

Most kids who drop out didn't have a hope of going on to college anyway and we've become a 'go to college or you're nothing' society - sadly. If you want to keep them in school, help them come up with a game plan. High school needs to be part of an overall game plan or what really is the point? High school is supposed to be leading to something.

I don't know what community you're in but why not have some community leaders come in and point out what opportunities there are for high school graduates in the community. And don't have all college-educated people come in. Schools are far too removed from the real world we're supposed to be preparing kids for. Have auto mechanics come in. Plumbers, craftspeople.

How successful are these students who want to drop out in your school? In my experience here, the kids who drop out are not 'unwilling' to succeed but are those who have never known much success in school.

Do you have an advisor our counselor appointed to specifically work with the kids who are at risk of dropping out? Is your faculty informed when a student has begun talking of dropping out so they can step forward and support the student at risk of dropping out? Often the kids who drop out have a life that's been based in mistrust and anger and that mistrust and anger needs to be addressed and ministered to by a teacher or counselor that fosters trust and builds bridges well with at-risk students. > A few day prior to this posting I was having a conversation > with a senior teacher in regards to students who are very > honest about their never wanting to, or unwillingness > towrds, graduating from high school. Although I work with > a group of students who are far more likely to drop out > than the majority (EBD students), I have had student who > tell me from day one that they do not plan on graduating > and they will do the minimal amount of work to fill the > time for three or so years. > > What do you think about this situation in general? Also, > what do you believe would be the best classroom management > technique to use with this student (especially due to the > fact that they try to sell the idea of dropping out to > their peers)?

Feb 23, 2011

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Jo clapping for Steve Yeah, Steve. Great post. I agree with almost everything you said except for kids not thinking about what they will do after they drop out or after they spend the next 3 years biding time. I do believe this is the problem with SOME of them. Others I think know what is out there but the environment they must attend every day is so painful they would ...See MoreYeah, Steve. Great post. I agree with almost everything you said except for kids not thinking about what they will do after they drop out or after they spend the next 3 years biding time. I do believe this is the problem with SOME of them. Others I think know what is out there but the environment they must attend every day is so painful they would rather reach that goal earlier than later. I've yet to see a child that does not do well be held in high regard in HS or MS or elementary school for that matter.

Sad reality is, even with a dipoloma jobs that pay the bills with benefits are scarce. Vocational programs have almost all disappeared in the schools. Most of these kids probably don't know how they would ever pay for a vocational program after HS if they did graduate. Many will let their skills dwindle so they can't get into them. Some community colleges even have apprentice programs.

These kids need to see the choices available at their level. As Steve said, having people from the community come in to talk to them is great. But the sad reality is that by this point, many are too far gone to be swayed.

I know our HS mentions alternatives to college but if you blink or lose attention for one second you miss it.

On 2/23/11, Steve wrote: > On 2/21/11, Cody C. wrote: > > I'd be tempted to ask them - gently and kindly - what they > are going to do when they drop out?? If by some miracle they > have million dollar jobs waiting for them when they drop out, > well, then, wow, I'll drop out with them. We have to > understand that they find school odious and it's then > understandable that they'd want to drop out. How many people > do you know who say they can't wait until they can retire? > That's a kind of dropping out really but most of my friends > who retire then are pretty unhappy - dropping out and > retiring both aren't all they're cracked up to be. > > When kids talk about dropping out, they're really talking > about ending the pain. School is painful for them - our > schools mine included really only reach a certain kind of > learner and the others fall through not the cracks but the > huge gaps in the system. So they want to drop out to get out > of the gap. > > But what are they going to do? Such a question can also be > painful for them because most never consider life past the > happy moment they drop out. What will they do the next day? > Make a life watching Jerry Springer? Have they heard that > jobs are pretty hard to come by these days? Are they > independently wealthy? > > I actually went through this with my own son. His very > skilled Dean of Students sympathized with his desire to drop > out but kept him in school by simply asking "What are you > going to do tomorrow when you wake up? Sit home? Watching > television? Forever?" And she asked it in a very nice and > caring tone of voice. > > Most kids who drop out didn't have a hope of going on to > college anyway and we've become a 'go to college or you're > nothing' society - sadly. If you want to keep them in school, > help them come up with a game plan. High school needs to be > part of an overall game plan or what really is the point? > High school is supposed to be leading to something. > > I don't know what community you're in but why not have some > community leaders come in and point out what opportunities > there are for high school graduates in the community. And > don't have all college-educated people come in. Schools are > far too removed from the real world we're supposed to be > preparing kids for. Have auto mechanics come in. Plumbers, > craftspeople. > > How successful are these students who want to drop out in > your school? In my experience here, the kids who drop out are > not 'unwilling' to succeed but are those who have never known > much success in school. > > Do you have an advisor our counselor appointed to > specifically work with the kids who are at risk of dropping > out? Is your faculty informed when a student has begun > talking of dropping out so they can step forward and support > the student at risk of dropping out? Often the kids who drop > out have a life that's been based in mistrust and anger and > that mistrust and anger needs to be addressed and ministered > to by a teacher or counselor that fosters trust and builds > bridges well with at-risk students. >> A few day prior to this posting I was having a conversation >> with a senior teacher in regards to students who are very >> honest about their never wanting to, or unwillingness >> towrds, graduating from high school. Although I work with >> a group of students who are far more likely to drop out >> than the majority (EBD students), I have had student who >> tell me from day one that they do not plan on graduating >> and they will do the minimal amount of work to fill the >> time for three or so years. >> >> What do you think about this situation in general? Also, >> what do you believe would be the best classroom management >> technique to use with this student (especially due to the >> fact that they try to sell the idea of dropping out to >> their peers)?

Feb 23, 2011

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Kathy F I have asked what they plan on doing if they don't graduate and of course they know someone who has a $20 and no high school diploma. I try not to argue with them, but instead give them info to make their own choices. I have a worksheet that compares average wages of no high school diploma, diploma, assoc. degree, bach. degree, doc. degree. It make...See MoreI have asked what they plan on doing if they don't graduate and of course they know someone who has a $20 and no high school diploma. I try not to argue with them, but instead give them info to make their own choices. I have a worksheet that compares average wages of no high school diploma, diploma, assoc. degree, bach. degree, doc. degree. It makes them compare wages over their life span, which is a real eye opener. I agree that not all students need to go to college and some will do just fine with a lower paying job. I think part of classroom management is not arguing with your students, but giving them the facts to make their own decisions, not forcing your opinions down their throat.

On 2/23/11, Steve wrote: > On 2/21/11, Cody C. wrote: > > I'd be tempted to ask them - gently and kindly - what they > are going to do when they drop out?? If by some miracle they > have million dollar jobs waiting for them when they drop out, > well, then, wow, I'll drop out with them. We have to > understand that they find school odious and it's then > understandable that they'd want to drop out. How many people > do you know who say they can't wait until they can retire? > That's a kind of dropping out really but most of my friends > who retire then are pretty unhappy - dropping out and > retiring both aren't all they're cracked up to be. > > When kids talk about dropping out, they're really talking > about ending the pain. School is painful for them - our > schools mine included really only reach a certain kind of > learner and the others fall through not the cracks but the > huge gaps in the system. So they want to drop out to get out > of the gap. > > But what are they going to do? Such a question can also be > painful for them because most never consider life past the > happy moment they drop out. What will they do the next day? > Make a life watching Jerry Springer? Have they heard that > jobs are pretty hard to come by these days? Are they > independently wealthy? > > I actually went through this with my own son. His very > skilled Dean of Students sympathized with his desire to drop > out but kept him in school by simply asking "What are you > going to do tomorrow when you wake up? Sit home? Watching > television? Forever?" And she asked it in a very nice and > caring tone of voice. > > Most kids who drop out didn't have a hope of going on to > college anyway and we've become a 'go to college or you're > nothing' society - sadly. If you want to keep them in school, > help them come up with a game plan. High school needs to be > part of an overall game plan or what really is the point? > High school is supposed to be leading to something. > > I don't know what community you're in but why not have some > community leaders come in and point out what opportunities > there are for high school graduates in the community. And > don't have all college-educated people come in. Schools are > far too removed from the real world we're supposed to be > preparing kids for. Have auto mechanics come in. Plumbers, > craftspeople. > > How successful are these students who want to drop out in > your school? In my experience here, the kids who drop out are > not 'unwilling' to succeed but are those who have never known > much success in school. > > Do you have an advisor our counselor appointed to > specifically work with the kids who are at risk of dropping > out? Is your faculty informed when a student has begun > talking of dropping out so they can step forward and support > the student at risk of dropping out? Often the kids who drop > out have a life that's been based in mistrust and anger and > that mistrust and anger needs to be addressed and ministered > to by a teacher or counselor that fosters trust and builds > bridges well with at-risk students. >> A few day prior to this posting I was having a conversation >> with a senior teacher in regards to students who are very >> honest about their never wanting to, or unwillingness >> towrds, graduating from high school. Although I work with >> a group of students who are far more likely to drop out >> than the majority (EBD students), I have had student who >> tell me from day one that they do not plan on graduating >> and they will do the minimal amount of work to fill the >> time for three or so years. >> >> What do you think about this situation in general? Also, >> what do you believe would be the best classroom management >> technique to use with this student (especially due to the >> fact that they try to sell the idea of dropping out to >> their peers)?

Feb 23, 2011

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Cody C. Steve- Thanks for the wonderful response. I have the opportunity to work with my students for seven years, and due to this, get to know them well. We have had the conversation running since day one pertaining to "what will you do if..." questions. They are living in a situation where not since they have been on earth one or more parents have had a ...See MoreSteve- Thanks for the wonderful response. I have the opportunity to work with my students for seven years, and due to this, get to know them well. We have had the conversation running since day one pertaining to "what will you do if..." questions. They are living in a situation where not since they have been on earth one or more parents have had a job. Many of their parents did not make it through school (the same school they are now attending), and from a childs perspective they seem to be doing OK.

We do not have a high school advisor who works with at-risk students. He does however do a great job setting-up kids with college plans who will attend with or without him, and were seeded to attend since the womb.

You raise good questions and provide great tips. I feel that I am doing what you suggested plus some. I will continue to open their eyes and teach what is expected of me, by me.

Thanks again. On 2/23/11, Steve wrote: > On 2/21/11, Cody C. wrote: > > I'd be tempted to ask them - gently and kindly - what they > are going to do when they drop out?? If by some miracle they > have million dollar jobs waiting for them when they drop out, > well, then, wow, I'll drop out with them. We have to > understand that they find school odious and it's then > understandable that they'd want to drop out. How many people > do you know who say they can't wait until they can retire? > That's a kind of dropping out really but most of my friends > who retire then are pretty unhappy - dropping out and > retiring both aren't all they're cracked up to be. > > When kids talk about dropping out, they're really talking > about ending the pain. School is painful for them - our > schools mine included really only reach a certain kind of > learner and the others fall through not the cracks but the > huge gaps in the system. So they want to drop out to get out > of the gap. > > But what are they going to do? Such a question can also be > painful for them because most never consider life past the > happy moment they drop out. What will they do the next day? > Make a life watching Jerry Springer? Have they heard that > jobs are pretty hard to come by these days? Are they > independently wealthy? > > I actually went through this with my own son. His very > skilled Dean of Students sympathized with his desire to drop > out but kept him in school by simply asking "What are you > going to do tomorrow when you wake up? Sit home? Watching > television? Forever?" And she asked it in a very nice and > caring tone of voice. > > Most kids who drop out didn't have a hope of going on to > college anyway and we've become a 'go to college or you're > nothing' society - sadly. If you want to keep them in school, > help them come up with a game plan. High school needs to be > part of an overall game plan or what really is the point? > High school is supposed to be leading to something. > > I don't know what community you're in but why not have some > community leaders come in and point out what opportunities > there are for high school graduates in the community. And > don't have all college-educated people come in. Schools are > far too removed from the real world we're supposed to be > preparing kids for. Have auto mechanics come in. Plumbers, > craftspeople. > > How successful are these students who want to drop out in > your school? In my experience here, the kids who drop out are > not 'unwilling' to succeed but are those who have never known > much success in school. > > Do you have an advisor our counselor appointed to > specifically work with the kids who are at risk of dropping > out? Is your faculty informed when a student has begun > talking of dropping out so they can step forward and support > the student at risk of dropping out? Often the kids who drop > out have a life that's been based in mistrust and anger and > that mistrust and anger needs to be addressed and ministered > to by a teacher or counselor that fosters trust and builds > bridges well with at-risk students. >> A few day prior to this posting I was having a conversation >> with a senior teacher in regards to students who are very >> honest about their never wanting to, or unwillingness >> towrds, graduating from high school. Although I work with >> a group of students who are far more likely to drop out >> than the majority (EBD students), I have had student who >> tell me from day one that they do not plan on graduating >> and they will do the minimal amount of work to fill the >> time for three or so years. >> >> What do you think about this situation in general? Also, >> what do you believe would be the best classroom management >> technique to use with this student (especially due to the >> fact that they try to sell the idea of dropping out to >> their peers)?

Feb 24, 2011

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Steve On 2/24/11, Cody C. wrote:

How are they 'doing ok' if no one has or has ever had a job?? And what do they say they'll do when they drop out? I mean literally do every day? I'd be interested to know. I get what you're saying about their role models though I don't get how anyone does 'ok' if no one had ever had a job.

And when they...See MoreOn 2/24/11, Cody C. wrote:

How are they 'doing ok' if no one has or has ever had a job?? And what do they say they'll do when they drop out? I mean literally do every day? I'd be interested to know. I get what you're saying about their role models though I don't get how anyone does 'ok' if no one had ever had a job.

And when they drop out, they have to be 16 - so they're no longer 'children' at 16 and shouldn't be seeing things from a 'child's perspective' anymore. And why do they want to drop out? They're missing too many Jerry Springer episodes? Joking aside, what's the draw? What's so exciting on the home front that makes them want to drop out and be home every day?

As to the best classroom management technique to work with such students, dialogue would be half of the best technique I'd think. A child's perspective can be altered and impacted on and so can a 16 year old's. If dialogue can be considered a 'classroom management technique' then having a dialogue with the entire class on the value and wisdom or lack of it in dropping it would seem a good approach to me.

But that dialogue and discussion should be open to what it is in school that they want to leave behind and another classroom management technique to keep kids in school is helping them to be successful in school. Are these kids who drop out successful students? I'd be surprised to hear that.

Did you mean management of those unwilling to graduate or unwilling to succeed?

> Steve- > Thanks for the wonderful response. I have the opportunity to > work with my students for seven years, and due to this, get to > know them well. We have had the conversation running since day > one pertaining to "what will you do if..." questions. They are > living in a situation where not since they have been on earth > one or more parents have had a job. Many of their parents did > not make it through school (the same school they are now > attending), and from a childs perspective they seem to be doing > OK. > > We do not have a high school advisor who works with at-risk > students. He does however do a great job setting-up kids with > college plans who will attend with or without him, and were > seeded to attend since the womb. > > You raise good questions and provide great tips. I feel that I > am doing what you suggested plus some. I will continue to open > their eyes and teach what is expected of me, by me. > > Thanks again. > On 2/23/11, Steve wrote: >> On 2/21/11, Cody C. wrote: >> >> I'd be tempted to ask them - gently and kindly - what they >> are going to do when they drop out?? If by some miracle they >> have million dollar jobs waiting for them when they drop out, >> well, then, wow, I'll drop out with them. We have to >> understand that they find school odious and it's then >> understandable that they'd want to drop out. How many people >> do you know who say they can't wait until they can retire? >> That's a kind of dropping out really but most of my friends >> who retire then are pretty unhappy - dropping out and >> retiring both aren't all they're cracked up to be. >> >> When kids talk about dropping out, they're really talking >> about ending the pain. School is painful for them - our >> schools mine included really only reach a certain kind of >> learner and the others fall through not the cracks but the >> huge gaps in the system. So they want to drop out to get out >> of the gap. >> >> But what are they going to do? Such a question can also be >> painful for them because most never consider life past the >> happy moment they drop out. What will they do the next day? >> Make a life watching Jerry Springer? Have they heard that >> jobs are pretty hard to come by these days? Are they >> independently wealthy? >> >> I actually went through this with my own son. His very >> skilled Dean of Students sympathized with his desire to drop >> out but kept him in school by simply asking "What are you >> going to do tomorrow when you wake up? Sit home? Watching >> television? Forever?" And she asked it in a very nice and >> caring tone of voice. >> >> Most kids who drop out didn't have a hope of going on to >> college anyway and we've become a 'go to college or you're >> nothing' society - sadly. If you want to keep them in school, >> help them come up with a game plan. High school needs to be >> part of an overall game plan or what really is the point? >> High school is supposed to be leading to something. >> >> I don't know what community you're in but why not have some >> community leaders come in and point out what opportunities >> there are for high school graduates in the community. And >> don't have all college-educated people come in. Schools are >> far too removed from the real world we're supposed to be >> preparing kids for. Have auto mechanics come in. Plumbers, >> craftspeople. >> >> How successful are these students who want to drop out in >> your school? In my experience here, the kids who drop out are >> not 'unwilling' to succeed but are those who have never known >> much success in school. >> >> Do you have an advisor our counselor appointed to >> specifically work with the kids who are at risk of dropping >> out? Is your faculty informed when a student has begun >> talking of dropping out so they can step forward and support >> the student at risk of dropping out? Often the kids who drop >> out have a life that's been based in mistrust and anger and >> that mistrust and anger needs to be addressed and ministered >> to by a teacher or counselor that fosters trust and builds >> bridges well with at-risk students. >>> A few day prior to this posting I was having a conversation >>> with a senior teacher in regards to students who are very >>> honest about their never wanting to, or unwillingness >>> towrds, graduating from high school. Although I work with >>> a group of students who are far more likely to drop out >>> than the majority (EBD students), I have had student who >>> tell me from day one that they do not plan on graduating >>> and they will do the minimal amount of work to fill the >>> time for three or so years. >>> >>> What do you think about this situation in general? Also, >>> what do you believe would be the best classroom management >>> technique to use with this student (especially due to the >>> fact that they try to sell the idea of dropping out to >>> their peers)?

Feb 25, 2011

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