students won't follow procedures

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Classroom Management Chatboard

students won't follow procedures

by Brachhus

Nov 9, 2011

My students have the same procedure every day: come into class, get out their notebooks, and do the assignment on the board. Usually it's questions in their text as that's something I don't have to explain or go over ahead of time. Yet EVERY DAY I'm still saying, "get out your notebooks and get to work."

When the tardy bell rings, at least half the glass still doesn't have their notebooks out.

The assignment is on the board. The students know what to do. It hasn't changed all year, but they still refuse to do it.

I taught magnet or advanced students before, and they had no problem with this. Now I teach general level students, and they won't do it.

What do I need to change?

According to Harry Wong, if I punish them for not doing what they're supposed to be doing, it's my fault for not giving them a clear procedure.

These are high school kids. How much clearer and easier can "si0t down, get out your notebook, and do the assignment...See More

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ja I have said before and I will say again that Harry Wong uses the behavioral science studies that BF Skinner wrote about in the 60's and 70's. However the methods make me very uncomfortable. Students are not lab rats running through a maze acting and reacting like robots. This might work for a while but I hope that we are not training robots.
<...See More

Jan 10, 2012

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Ryan On 1/10/12, ja wrote:

Bracchus, you came on this chatboard to seek help. You recognize that procedures are important in a classroom as you recognize when procedures are needed for a fire drill. Your problem is having students learn the procedures and several of us gave you pointers and techniques to help you.

Now ja comes to let ...See MoreOn 1/10/12, ja wrote:

Bracchus, you came on this chatboard to seek help. You recognize that procedures are important in a classroom as you recognize when procedures are needed for a fire drill. Your problem is having students learn the procedures and several of us gave you pointers and techniques to help you.

Now ja comes to let you off the hook by telling you that procedures turn students into robots. First she is wrong in bashing Harry Wong as he did not invent procedures. Teachers have been using procedures since education began thousands of years ago. Harry Wong is just reporting what teachers do in the classroom, such as the music teacher that is shown in the above banner who has her class tuning their instruments without being told to do so, but ja would call this Skinnerian operant conditioning and she claims all of the music students have become robots.

Skinner’s work was done with rats and pigeons in a box and his work has been criticized by many as being inapplicable to humans. If ja does not believe that procedures are important, tell that to the many who died and suffered during the recent capsizing of the cruise ship off the coast of Italy. The captain did not follow procedures. Ja’s analogy is faulty and irresponsible and also not applicable to the classroom.

In Skinnerian operant conditioning there is a stimulus and a response and a reward and a consequence. Procedures do not have a stimulus and response and there are no rewards or consequences.

It is standard procedural practice used by thousands of teachers to have an assignment (bellwork, do now..) posted for the students to begin working when the students enter the classroom, just as workers are expected to show up to work and begin working without anyone telling them what to do - because they know work procedures. Procedures are used when pilots fly a plane, when cooks make a hamburger at a fast food restaurant, and carpenters construct the roof on a building. Procedures were used in building the pyramids, flying across the Atlantic by Charles Lindberg, and performing a play in a Greek theater.

We teach procedures in a classroom when we teach students how to take lecture notes using the Cornell note-taking procedure, the steps in how to solve a quadratic equation on the board, and how to structure a sentence to an ELL student. We teach students how to say “thank you,” “excuse me,” and “please.” We teach little kids the procedure of how to tie their shoe laces.

But, ja says to chuck all of this because to teach someone the steps of how to do something is akin to Skinner teaching rats and pigeons how to reward themselves with food. Skinner was an ivory tower professor who built a box and used it to train rats and pigeons to push the right buttons with a stimulus and response conditioning to obtain food based on a reward or consequence system.

Procedures do not have rewards or consequences. They are steps taught to people so that they can be responsible for how they will run their own lives. Procedures are how you set a foundation in a classroom so that you can build relationships, have high-order thinking activities, and engage students in fun activities. You cannot do these in a classroom with no organization and structure that is operating every day in chaos.

Ja, please tell us how you would run a classroom without procedures that organize your students so that the classroom is safe and productive? How would you advise a teacher to take students on a field trip such as a band on a bus, plane, hotel to the Rose Parade without procedures? How would you tell the coach to run plays in a football game with a team that has no procedures? How does your cohort of teachers meet in teams to discuss student achievement without procedures that govern the meeting and how to examine the achievement data? What would your school do if they took your advice to run a school without procedures in the face of a forthcoming hurricane? After school, you would consider students robots and trained rats if they were told where to stand (safely) to wait for the bus or their ride, correct?

Bracchus, you have a choice. Organize your classroom with procedures so the students know what to do or take ja’s advice and chuck procedures out the window. If you do the latter, my strong suggestion is that you take out a large liability insurance policy to cover yourself in case of accidents.

> I have said before and I will say again that Harry Wong uses the > behavioral science studies that BF Skinner wrote about in the 60's and > 70's. However the methods make me very uncomfortable. Students are not > lab rats running through a maze acting and reacting like robots. This > might work for a while but I hope that we are not training robots. > > On 12/10/11, bracchus wrote: >> >>> Is that really what's getting you down? Having to say those few words >>> every day? >> >> When I read all of these stories about how other teachers' students >> just walk in and get to work, yes it does get me down. >> >> And I'd LOVE to see Harry Wong come to my class and rehearse with my >> students how to sit down and get out their notebooks and texts

Jan 17, 2012

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Nancy Berg On 12/17/11, Miryam/HSMath wrote: > Bacchus, are your students held accountable for doing the bell > work in your class? If you don't show them that you take > their bell work seriously (by counting it as a grade - or at > least by making them think that you do) then why should they > care about doing it? What I learned works for me ...See MoreOn 12/17/11, Miryam/HSMath wrote: > Bacchus, are your students held accountable for doing the bell > work in your class? If you don't show them that you take > their bell work seriously (by counting it as a grade - or at > least by making them think that you do) then why should they > care about doing it? What I learned works for me to get > students started on their StartUp assignment is that I > announce "I'm coming around in about 3 minutes to check your > StartUps. " Then I walked around the room with a self-inking > stamp and if they have at least some work done they get a > stamp. > > Some Details: Each Monday they get a blank StartUp sheet with > 5 boxes labeled Monday-Friday. Each Friday I collect their > StartUp sheet and it is counted as a classwork grade. Grade > is based on having a stamp and having the problem completed. > > I give stamps based on the level of the student. If it's a > student who I know knows how to do the problem quickly, they > will only get a stamp if it's done. If it's a weaker math > student, then I'll give them a stamp as long as they attempted > something. It's fairly easy to earn a stamp, but you can't > get it if you don't have your StartUp sheet out and work on > it. > > I don't have to bug students about getting out their notebooks > because once they see me giving out stamps to their > classmates, they rush to get started so that they don't miss > out on their own stamp (some days I do have to bug them a few > times, but not often). I don't try to be mean about it - I'll > even announce when I'm done with a quick, "Did I miss > stamping anyone who did the problem?" My ultimate goal is to > get them settled and ready to learn, so I do whatever I need > to do to encourage that. > > > It's not just about being "easy and clear" with what you want > students to do. A speed limit of 30mph is easy and clear, > yet every day there are good people breaking this rule. What > your students need is a reason, a motivation, to do what you > want. For my students, that motivation is getting a stamp just > like the rest of their peers. > > On 11/09/11, Brachhus wrote: >> My students have the same procedure every day: come into >> class, get out their notebooks, and do the assignment on >> the board. Usually it's questions in their text as that's >> something I don't have to explain or go over ahead of time. >> Yet EVERY DAY I'm still saying, "get out your notebooks and >> get to work." >> >> When the tardy bell rings, at least half the glass still >> doesn't have their notebooks out. >> >> The assignment is on the board. The students know what to >> do. It hasn't changed all year, but they still refuse to do >> it. >> >> I taught magnet or advanced students before, and they had >> no problem with this. Now I teach general level students, >> and they won't do it. >> >> What do I need to change? >> >> According to Harry Wong, if I punish them for not doing >> what they're supposed to be doing, it's my fault for not >> giving them a clear procedure. >> >> These are high school kids. How much clearer and easier >> can "si0t down, get out your notebook, and do the >> assignment on the board" be? >> >> I read about these teachers who students are exicted to get >> to class and perfectly behaved, and I feel like a failure. >> >> What do I need to do?

I teach middle school and I have the same procedure every day. The "Do Now" is posted on an easel and on th esmart board. It is a quick assignment such as write at least three strategies that you use when taking a reading comprehension test. I put a timer up on the smart board. I have each student's name written on a popsicle stick. AFter the alloted time period is up, I pull 2-3 students names. They are required to read their responses. The class receives a grade based on the responses. I collect the grades and do the same thing for the week. I make sure I do not pull the same student each day. The class is given one grade based on the entire week. Each student assumes the responsibility of completing the work. They usually take this seriously. There are times when I allow a stronger student to work with a weaker one. This strategy has been very successful. Good luck!

Mar 8, 2012

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Middle School Teacher I have one class out of four where the students still, at this late date in the year, do not follow the procedure. It is not all the students in the class, but many of them. I tried just waiting patiently and looking at the Do Now, then looking at the student. Other students would catch on and tell the off task student what I was waiting for. I als...See More

May 25, 2012

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Life-loing learner As others have stated, what works for one teacher may or may not work for another due to the fact that we are all wonderfully different personalities with wonderfully different ideas of what classroom management is and how we go about establishing it in our classrooms and maintaining it once it is in place. I too have an opening assignment, which I...See MoreAs others have stated, what works for one teacher may or may not work for another due to the fact that we are all wonderfully different personalities with wonderfully different ideas of what classroom management is and how we go about establishing it in our classrooms and maintaining it once it is in place. I too have an opening assignment, which I call "Welcome Work". I chose this name because it is the most inviting to the students, and they are more likely to respond to a welcoming environment than to a seemingly more cold one such as a classroom in which they walk in and see a "Do Now", which I used to call my opening activity. The way I found out that helping my students to get to work right away could even be achieved by changing the name of the opening assignment was from a student. This student approached me at my desk on her way out of class one day, and she told me that I seemed to be frustrated that there was an opening activity posted, and the students in general wouldn't get to work on it right away. She suggested changing the name of the assignment because "Do Now" was militant in nature and told the kids that a dictator was in the classroom, and I was bossing them around already as they walked in the door, and I hadn't even said a word yet. When I suggested calling it "Welcome Work", she said that was a good idea because the first word I said to them would be "welcome". It's more inviting and doesn't demand that they get to work or do the work. It asks them to do so, and more students actually began doing it than before. This conversation sparked an idea with me. I decided that, beginning the next class period, I would also have a "Welcome Work" assignment posted for myself, and I told the students that I wouldn't ask them to do anything that I wasn't willing to do myself, and it would even be cool if they could give the teacher some "Welcome Work" assignments; therefore, their Welcome Work for the day was to write their top five welcome work activities that the teacher could do that week, and 100% of them did the assignment. The next class period, two Welcome Work assignments were posted on the board, one for the class and one for me, and it was one of the opening assignments that one of the students had suggested. I gave the students and myself 5 minutes to do the assignment, and I always quickly took the roll first, them did the assignment. We would then go over the assignments briefly, starting with mine, and the students graded me on my effort first. Then, we reviewed theirs, or I took it up for grading. Either way, the students were accountable for each "Welcome Work" assignment. They were worth 100 test grade, 50 points for completing theirs each day and submitting it for my review, and 50 points for proper critique of my completing welcome work assignments. Each student started with 100, and, every time they chose not to do their own assignment or didn't pay attention to mine, they lost 2 points per assignment. This procedure got about 90 percent of the students to work. Those 10% that did not respond even to that, I decided to make them classroom helpers and grade them on their willingness to do the job without reminders. For instance, one person was my file 13 manager. This student would take the trashcan around the room and pick up and dispose of any trash. One student was the pencil pusher, the one who sharpened all the pencils in the can for students to be able to use as theirs became dull or broken, another student changed the date to get it current where the agenda was posted. Another student place empty file folders on student desks for a student who had been absent, and their assignments were placed in their folders that day, and another student filed them for safekeeping after the class had ended. I had to make some of the students' welcome work another assignment entirely, and my justification was that the point of the welcome work was get students in the classroom quickly and quickly on task in a productive way. Isn't maintaining our classroom also serving that purpose? Finally, there was an additional consequence for not following procedure. For every 3 times that a student didn't do his or her welcome work activity, the student spent one day with me at lunch having silent lunch. If the student wasn't with me for lunch, my colleagues knew about my procedure, and I emailed them each day asking for those students who were serving duty to report to me for silent lunch, and it worked great. After about 1 or 2 times of sitting in front of the teacher at a table by themselves, not allowed to speak a word without adding an extra day of silent lunch, with their back toward their socializing classmates, miraculously, welcome work was welcomed! This worked for me, and I hope you can glean some good ideas from it. My advice is to modify welcome work to think outside the box for those that just have to be moving around the classroom and doing something else productive, hold the students accountable for their actions or lack thereof with grading penalties for the work or lack thereof or with silent lunch and/or no social time for lack of following procedure. Hit them where it hurts, so to speak, which is taking away their social time, the main reason that most students like to be in school. Good luck!

On 12/17/11, Zodea with some thoughts wrote: > Someone tell me if my thinking makes any sense here. > > As a teacher, do I really want to give up control of my > classroom to my students? My first thought is "no, I want to > be the one in charge". > > If that is how I feel deep down inside myself, do I really want > the students to be totally autonomous at the beginning of > class? I suspect the reason why my students wait for me to say > "Let's get to work" is because no matter what I think I want > them to do, every day I subconsciously reinforce the idea of > "Let's wait for the teacher to tell us to get to work." > > I suspect if I had a situation where I could not be depended on > being in the classroom to start the class, I would set up > procedures differently. (Like if you're a traveling teacher or > something) > > As I reflect, I think I want to be needed in my own classroom. > If that means that I'm the one to get the class started and on > track before I take roll and hand back papers, then that is > what I teach them when we go over procedures. Maybe If I gave > up that control and actually taught the procedures in a way > that assumed I was not going to help them get started every > day, then it might work. > > I do not see anything wrong with walking into the classroom > those first weeks of school and if the students aren't doing it > the right way to have them all go back out into the hallway and > "practice" getting it right. I could stand and greet them at > the doorway, give any directions they need to get started and > then not enter the room until after the bell rang. Maybe if I > actually taught the procedures the way I visualize them, then > they would work. However, if I'm honest with myself I don't > teach them that way... and what I get is what I get.

Jun 22, 2012

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