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Classroom Discipline Chatboard

Which Discipline Plan Do You Use?

by Rod Sparer

Jun 30, 2010

When I taught a short while back I didn't have the best discipline plan or any support. I really don't think discipline and classroom management was stressed enough in my teacher education. Now and then my professors brought up the fact that teachers have to have good classroom management, but they didn't go into serious detail like they did lesson plans. As we all know you can have the best lesson plans on earth, but if you don't have the management skills, forget about it.

Now that I am returning to the classroom, I'm curious what discipline plans have worked for folks and how they manage their classes. I was going over Lee Canters Assertive disciple, which has some good ideas. He suggests you point out the positive rather than negative. I think most discipline and management systems agree on respecting students, praising good behavior, and setting expectations early. However, when a child acts up Canter would suggest you might say, "Billy I need you to sit in your sit so yo...See MoreWhen I taught a short while back I didn't have the best discipline plan or any support. I really don't think discipline and classroom management was stressed enough in my teacher education. Now and then my professors brought up the fact that teachers have to have good classroom management, but they didn't go into serious detail like they did lesson plans. As we all know you can have the best lesson plans on earth, but if you don't have the management skills, forget about it.

Now that I am returning to the classroom, I'm curious what discipline plans have worked for folks and how they manage their classes. I was going over Lee Canters Assertive disciple, which has some good ideas. He suggests you point out the positive rather than negative. I think most discipline and management systems agree on respecting students, praising good behavior, and setting expectations early. However, when a child acts up Canter would suggest you might say, "Billy I need you to sit in your sit so you can finish your lesson". If Billy doesn't comply the teacher would write his name on the board and say nothing. If the behavior continues you might put a check by his name. Then perhaps if the behavior still continues, you would add a check and say " billy you have a choice, you can either remain in your seat quietly for the rest of class or you can spend 30 minutes with me after school today". If Billy continues to act up he gets a third check and the teacher calls home in class to arrange detention that day.

This sounds great but there are a few problems I see. Canter suggest you call the kid's home and tell a parent Billy has to stay 30mins after school. Canter says if the parent doesn't agree or makes excuses then tell the parent "Billy either can stay with me for 30mins today or an hour on whatever day is arranged. It's much more effective if the punishment is on the same day". Another problem I see with this is that sometimes the numbers for parents do not work or they are not available. Then what? Also, what if the parent just isn't cooperative? Furthermore, what if you have several troublemakers in one class and multiply that by 5 or 6 classes. Then do they all stay after the same day? It could almost turn into a party for them. Sometimes it can be hard to phone parents during class and if they hear a rowdy class they will think you have no control.

I encountered issues like this at my last school, but in truth there was no teacher support and teacher authority was undermined by administrators. It was not unusual to have several major troublemakers in one class. Would Canter's approach be appropriate for for ages k-2?

I think this could possibly be more effective if the teacher sends home a beginning of the year letter or contract stating the discipline process and if children misbehave in class they have to stay after school for some type of detention the same day. That way parents have a heads up and they can't complain that they didn't know.

Suggestions? What plans do you use?

view previous comments

Tom azteacher,

Just one more point. The fact that Lee Canter would find this book to "the best" new book out there doesn't surprise me, nor does it surprise me that these procedures are described as "models that work." Canter is a traditional disciplinarian from way back, and is a huge fan of compliance and "consequences" (aka "punishments" fo...See More

Jul 8, 2010

azteacher azteacher, > > Thanks for the response. I'm with you, and would > recommend people take a look rather than trusting > either you or me. That said, I read enough of the book > on Amazon to know that its philosophies and practices > run counter to my own, and counter to what I consider > to be best practices of classroom manageme...See Moreazteacher, > > Thanks for the response. I'm with you, and would > recommend people take a look rather than trusting > either you or me. That said, I read enough of the book > on Amazon to know that its philosophies and practices > run counter to my own, and counter to what I consider > to be best practices of classroom management. > > The fact that inner city teachers do these things does > not sway me -- I introduced my own methodology to a > bunch of inner city teachers in Atlanta once (during an > inservice). All of them subscribed to this > compliance/punish paradigm, and none of them could > comprehend how a non-punitive and collaborative system > could possibly work with their students. > > But ONE teacher was brave enough to try it with her > "tough" inner city 8th graders ... and they > LOVED it. Her (and the students') success with it was > so great that she gave a presentation about it at the > next teacher's meeting. > > BTW, I am quoting the author when I write that he's for > "compliance" and punishments for > "defiance."

[I don't know where you got that quote. I read the entire book, and could not find any support for "punishments" whatsoever. Lemov and his master teachers believe in discipline and management as proactive devices to discourage negative behaviors, and do not adhere to behavioral consequences such as referrals and detentions. On page 148, Lemov states, "my definition of control is 'the capacity to choose to do what you ask, regardless of consequences." (This sounds close to the ideas you subscribe to.) The "compliance" you seem to distain, however, is in fact entirely focused on best practices for student confidence, freedom, and learning-- NOT to simply give teachers a sense of power. To quote again, "Benign, enlightened control reliably gets students to ask why and how questions... be suspicious of claims not supported by evidence, and reliably gets students to work hard, value learning, and respect their peers." The rest of the book is replete with student-focused messages, such as "The Joy Factor", "breaking down instructions" (assuming the teacher's lessons are less than clear), "honest praise", etc. Again, "Compliance" according to the author is simply focusing on guidance in maintaining the best classroom behaviors, not the punitive connotation you seem so intent on labeling it with. Dignity, mutual respect, etc., all stem from this.

While Lemov makes his techniques very specific and direct (which may seem inflexible but actually reinforce the main rule of management-- consistency), he also quotes many sources across the theoretical spectrum. In my mind, the best teachers and educational leaders are open-minded enough to consider all types of practices. In contrast, anyone who is unwilling to validate ideas other than his own is by definition authoritative and inflexible.]

Jul 9, 2010

Tom azteacher,

First of all, it is perfectly acceptable for a teacher to prefer one general style of classroom management over another. Not liking systems based on compliance and punishments doesn't make one inflexible or authoritarian, it just means that my philosophical viewpoint doesn't include that paradigm.

As far as compliance ...See Moreazteacher,

First of all, it is perfectly acceptable for a teacher to prefer one general style of classroom management over another. Not liking systems based on compliance and punishments doesn't make one inflexible or authoritarian, it just means that my philosophical viewpoint doesn't include that paradigm.

As far as compliance systems go, I don't object because it gives teachers a "sense of power," I object because it's inherently disrespectful and sets up a power imbalance, ultimately leading to kids complying because they want to please the teacher, gain rewards, or avoid punishments. I prefer a system which builds autonomy and self-discipline, with students choosing to support their peers and the teacher because ALL in the classroom are worthy of equal respect and dignity.

Here are some of the quotes which led me to draw the conclusions I have about Lemov's book:

“As discussed in What to Do, it’s critical that you not punish students when the issue is incompetence (rather than defiance). If the issue is incompetence, your response can be a consequence… or a clear directive. Either way, your response to incompetence should teach a student how to comply.”

“However, once you have determined that a behavior is the result of disobedience rather than incompetence, that it is deliberate, a consequence is better than a warning… [He then talks about planning your consequences, making them incremental.]”

“Next you might take away a small piece of a privilege (part of recess) or give several minutes of detention. Next you might plan to take away an entire privilege for a period of time (no recess today; a full hour of detention) and also make a phone call to a parent….” (all on pages 200-201)

All my best,

Tom

On 7/09/10, azteacher wrote: >> azteacher, >> >> Thanks for the response. I'm with you, and would >> recommend people take a look rather than trusting >> either you or me. That said, I read enough of the book >> on Amazon to know that its philosophies and practices >> run counter to my own, and counter to what I consider >> to be best practices of classroom management. >> >> The fact that inner city teachers do these things does >> not sway me -- I introduced my own methodology to a >> bunch of inner city teachers in Atlanta once (during an >> inservice). All of them subscribed to this >> compliance/punish paradigm, and none of them could >> comprehend how a non-punitive and collaborative system >> could possibly work with their students. >> >> But ONE teacher was brave enough to try it with her >> "tough" inner city 8th graders ... and they >> LOVED it. Her (and the students') success with it was >> so great that she gave a presentation about it at the >> next teacher's meeting. >> >> BTW, I am quoting the author when I write that he's for >> "compliance" and punishments for >> "defiance." > > [I don't know where you got that quote. I read the entire > book, and could not find any support for "punishments" > whatsoever. Lemov and his master teachers believe in > discipline and management as proactive devices to > discourage negative behaviors, and do not adhere to > behavioral consequences such as referrals and detentions. > On page 148, Lemov states, "my definition of control > is 'the capacity to choose to do what you ask, regardless > of consequences." (This sounds close to the ideas you > subscribe to.) The "compliance" you seem to distain, > however, is in fact entirely focused on best practices for > student confidence, freedom, and learning-- NOT to simply > give teachers a sense of power. To quote again, "Benign, > enlightened control reliably gets students to ask why and > how questions... be suspicious of claims not supported by > evidence, and reliably gets students to work hard, value > learning, and respect their peers." The rest of the book > is replete with student-focused messages, such as "The Joy > Factor", "breaking down instructions" (assuming the > teacher's lessons are less than clear), "honest praise", > etc. Again, "Compliance" according to the author is simply > focusing on guidance in maintaining the best classroom > behaviors, not the punitive connotation you seem so intent > on labeling it with. Dignity, mutual respect, etc., all > stem from this. > > While Lemov makes his techniques very specific and direct > (which may seem inflexible but actually reinforce the main > rule of management-- consistency), he also quotes many > sources across the theoretical spectrum. In my mind, the > best teachers and educational leaders are open-minded > enough to consider all types of practices. In contrast, > anyone who is unwilling to validate ideas other than his > own is by definition authoritative and inflexible.] >

Jul 9, 2010

Carla Try this, I've been using it 3 years now.

[link removed]

Jul 18, 2010

Miyoung Kang Rod, I agree with you when you said that teacher education curriculum do not stress enough how to discipline students. I am a health education teacher in Korea, and Korea used to allow teachers to do a corporal punishment, but now it is forbidden. Now, I am studying in America and read a lot of article which tells stories of chaos in the classroom ...See More

Jul 5, 2011

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